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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1827 of 1864 (910824)
05-17-2023 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1826 by Phat
05-17-2023 2:57 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Phat writes:
So essentially you are saying that if we dont have the knowledge of God or to prove God, Our lack of such knowledge equates to His lack of existence?
No, that's not what I'm saying, you should have stuck with that critical thinking course - if you ever started it.
There is a difference between knowledge and belief. If you have knowledge about something you don't need belief do you? We don't know whether god exists or not but some people believe he does anyway. Lack of knowledge doesn't prove non-existence but it is a bloody big clue.
Since when does human knowledge justify existence?
I don't think that actually means anything. I can't make much sense of it anyway.
What if God was an equation?
eh?
Does everyone have to agree on the equation?

Must humans by definition define such an equation or can the equation be defined by itself?

Humans may have many different equations, but only one equation provides the answer. Or are you prepared to argue against that?
wtf are you talking about?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1826 by Phat, posted 05-17-2023 2:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 1833 of 1864 (910843)
05-19-2023 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1832 by candle2
05-19-2023 2:47 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
Tangle, Israel had twelve sons, which were the progenitors of the twelve tribes of Israel.
candle2, In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1832 by candle2, posted 05-19-2023 2:47 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 1836 of 1864 (910847)
05-20-2023 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1835 by candle2
05-20-2023 1:55 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
The great and magnificent Darwin, and certain others
who lived during the Mid-Ninteenth Century, honestly
thought that the simplest living cells were nothing more
than a "jelly-like substance".

They believed that the cell was destitute of protoplasms,
and that it was devoid of texture and organs.

Now that we know the simplest cell is more complicated
and complex than the space shuttle it makes Darwin and
his sidekicks look stupid.
What has Darwin got to do with whether god(s) exist?
Darwinians actually think that this was a brilliant man.
I don't know what a Darwinian is but, yes, science and society generally has him up there with Newton and Einstein. And indeed he was a genius.
We know that the human cell carries out a billion chemical
reactions every second. And these reactions are not
random; they work together.
When you say "we", you mean the scientists that made progress on the shoulders of Darwin.
Biochemist Douglas Axe puts the probability of one
functional protein forming by chance at 1 in 10 to the 64th
power.

Write those zeroes out and then tell me that this is a
better chance than a living God.
You are talking about things you don't understand. I'm not a competent enough statistician to explain the fallacy here but it has been debunked for decades. It's a silly argument; can you tell me the probability of god?
Douglas and Biochemist Ann Gauger affirm that with
current knowledge the minimum time required for one
protein to evolve into another, with just small changes
is 10 to the power of 27 years.

By their estimate, even if the universe is 13 billion light
years old that would not be nearly enough time for one
functional protein to form, much less for one protein
to evolve into another.
Same fallacy.
Surely you can see how irrational Darwinians can be.
Can you explain why you think Darwin is relevant to this discussion?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1835 by candle2, posted 05-20-2023 1:55 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1840 by candle2, posted 05-22-2023 10:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1838 of 1864 (910849)
05-20-2023 5:50 PM


OK, so Axe is Discovery Institute so why go any further? Pander's thumb did though
Summary
quote:
To summarize, the claims that have been and will be made by ID proponents regarding protein evolution are not supported by Axe’s work. As I show, it is not appropriate to use the numbers Axe obtains to make inferences about the evolution of proteins and enzymes. Thus, this study does not support the conclusion that functional sequences are extremely isolated in sequence space, or that the evolution of new protein function is an impossibility that is beyond the capacity of random mutation and natural selection.
Full report
Axe (2004) and the evolution of enzyme function

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(4)
Message 1842 of 1864 (910868)
05-22-2023 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1840 by candle2
05-22-2023 10:22 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
And with all these degrees you cannot figure out that
the beliefs of Darwin are diametrically opposed to that
of God and creation.

There is only two ways for life to begin. It is either by
blind luck, or it is by creation.
You really ought to make some sort of effort to understand what it is you're complaining about. Evolution has nothing to do with how life began. Most believers have accepted evolution as a fact and understood that how life began is a totally different issue. Darwin is on the side of the creationist. You guys need to make him your friend.
quote:
With respect to the theological view of the question; this is always painful to me.— I am bewildered.– I had no intention to write atheistically. But I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do, & as I [should] wish to do, evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice. Not believing this, I see no necessity in the belief that the eye was expressly designed. On the other hand I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe & especially the nature of man, & to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me. I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton.— Let each man hope & believe what he can.
Charles Darwin

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1840 by candle2, posted 05-22-2023 10:22 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1846 by candle2, posted 05-29-2023 1:23 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1848 of 1864 (910963)
05-29-2023 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1846 by candle2
05-29-2023 1:23 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
A hard atheist cannot fall back on just evolution; the
hard atheist has the extra burden of defining how life
began.
It doesn't seem to matter how many times it's said, you guys still don't get it. An atheist does not believe in god(s). That's it it doesn't mean that we believe in something else instead, nor does it require us to ​come up with a fantasy alternative to how life started. It just means we don't believe in god(s).
The complexity of the simple cell is completely
devastating to atheists. Most atheists will not admit this,
but deep inside they know this to be true.
I'm an atheist and I am not devastated. Can you accept that? I'm just not at all devastated. Nor am I troubled or even disquieted. So you can forget that line of discussion can't you?
Furthermore, the lack of transitional fossils is fatal for
theistic evolutionists.
Nope.
TE's are insultinly dishonest when they insist that there
are many intermediate fossils.

If the fossils were there, they would be craming them
down our throats. But, they are not there.
I wonder if you know what a transitional fossil would look like? Can you tell us?
Even Darwin, who believed that the simple cell was made
of jelly, understood that the lack of transitional fossils
would relegate his theory to fantasy.
Well that's basically wrong, even if we had no transitional fossils - and of course, we've got plenty (tho' in fact all fossils are transitional) -
​the ToE would still stand.
God creates by design, not by chance. God spoke the
plants and animals into existence. He created Adam and
Eve with His own hands.

TE's are not helping God's cause by substituting lies for
His truth.
How old is the earth candle?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1846 by candle2, posted 05-29-2023 1:23 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1853 by candle2, posted 06-07-2023 11:12 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1854 of 1864 (911066)
06-07-2023 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1853 by candle2
06-07-2023 11:12 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
I am 100% certain that no one does. There are none (transitional fossils)
All life is transitional - you are not the same as your parents and your children are not the same as you. When we talk about transitional fossils though we mean those fossils that have traits common to different groups of organisms; their ancestors and their descendants.
Classically we have transitional fossils between ancestral dinosaurs and modern-day birds.
There's a whole list of examples here:
Transitional fossil - Wikipedia
I do not know how old the earth is.
Science does. It's 4.5 billion years old.
However, man and animals have only existed for roughly
6000 years.
Yes, well, there's little point continuing discussions on stuff like transitional fossils if you're stuck believing that life has only been around for 6,000 years. You are aware of the enormous amount of evidence supporting this I suppose?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1853 by candle2, posted 06-07-2023 11:12 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1855 by candle2, posted 06-07-2023 3:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1857 of 1864 (911077)
06-07-2023 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1855 by candle2
06-07-2023 3:21 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
Tangle, No one knows how old the universe is.
We KNOW - from multiple sources of evidence - that the Earth is £4.5bn years old. We KNOW for absolute certainty that 6,000 years is utterly ludicrous.
And, they are manipulated to fit the paradigm of the
administrator.
The Administrator? Fascinating; who is the Administrator?
Dr. Carl Werner
Dr Carl Werner is a religious nut job, a chiropractor apparently. Why are you listening to unqualified crackpots like this instead of the entire scientific community?
Dr. Werner is not the only scientist stressing this.
What? There are more unqualified religious fanatics that think that the earth is 6,000 years old. What a surprise. Is it also flat?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1855 by candle2, posted 06-07-2023 3:21 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 1858 of 1864 (911078)
06-07-2023 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1855 by candle2
06-07-2023 3:21 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
Tangle, No one knows how old the universe is.
Here are a few of the evidences for old earth.
Radiometric dating
Lunar samples
Fossil record
Ice cores
Tree rings
Sedimentary rock layers
Isotopic ratios in meteorites
Seafloor spreading
Coral reefs
Impact craters: Impact craters on Earth
Geochronology
Stellar evolution
Varves
Stellar nucleosynthesis
Paleomagnetism
Cosmogenic nuclides
Continental drift and plate tectonics
Fossilized stromatolites
Coral reef growth rates
Ice sheet layering
Radiohalos
Astronomical observations
Geothermal gradients
Geologic erosion and weathering
It's not an exclusive list but it's pretty much all of science a stake here. You're basically declaring that great chunks of physics, geology, biology, archaeology, chemistry, palaeontology, astronomy and god knows what all are wrong and that your personal interpretation of a the anonymous mythology of a bronze age tribe is right.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1855 by candle2, posted 06-07-2023 3:21 PM candle2 has not replied

  
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