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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2416 of 3694 (910834)
05-18-2023 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2412 by AZPaul3
05-18-2023 8:55 AM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
AZ Delusions writes:
It couldn't.
Perhaps you don't understand my point. Scientific law exists and has existed without humans. We simply learned the theory and law which proved what already existed and which had been operational in practice.
And the "Piano Man" existed before Billy Joel was born. Joel just "discovered" the relationships between the notes.
Discovered does not equate to "Created". There are numerous...perhaps infinite relationships between notes that have not yet been composed or defined to the satisfaction of human understanding or enjoyment. To argue otherwise would place humans on the level of creators. And yet there is nothing new under the sun.
Your warped deification of human reasoning explains your anti bent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2412 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2023 8:55 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2418 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2023 5:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 2417 of 3694 (910836)
05-18-2023 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2415 by Phat
05-18-2023 3:26 PM


Re: Selective Bias
Phat writes:
Why are you conflating Christianity at large with a cult leader?
Were's the conflation? this is a Christian belief system. They believe exactly what you believe with the only addition being that they think it's best to kill yourself early to meet Jesus rather than wait.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2415 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 3:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 2418 of 3694 (910837)
05-18-2023 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2416 by Phat
05-18-2023 3:32 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
Scientific law exists and has existed without humans.
Not unless you show me another sentient species in this universe that preceded humanity.
Do relationships exist among the particles and processes in the universe? Yes.
Does the math and the reasoning explaining those relationships exist outside the human mind? No. Give or take an alien or two.
You see a realm where undiscovered laws, medicines, patents and songs reside in unrequited knowledge. That would be a nice place to work but it doesn’t exist. As far as anyone can tell our laws are human conceptions of our observations. They are not the mental regurgitations from an diaphanous cosmic classroom.
Please remember that these human-created models we have are only approximations. In a curious twist on what people think about the laws of physics, our models like general relativity and QFT are such that an actual occurrence can be off by orders of magnitude but still be within 3, 4, 5 decimal places of the model. The universe IS NOT a precise clockwork though it sometimes appears to operate damn close.
The point is, our laws are good tools but they are not the kind of “perfect” someone would expect of a divinely crafted law. They have too much “human” written all over the symbology and reasoning and results.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2419 of 3694 (910960)
05-29-2023 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2402 by PaulK
05-13-2023 2:31 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
For someone who claims to have read a lot about this, you still seem unable to understand basic points. First it is not necessary that the basic impulses guarantee benefit even in the environment where they evolved. Second, behaviour is built up around those impulses. - there are cultural factors too. Third, the environment of the modern world is sufficiently different to the distant past so mismatches are expected. Fourth there are complications.

One important thing to note is that the gift of money usually has a negligible cost to the giver. Which is rather a relevant fact. Or to put it another way as “sacrificial love” goes it isn’t much of a sacrifice.

So there are in fact a number of possible explanations. Just off the top of my head I can see four issues - which are not exclusive.

First, the charity might be seen as “us” and therefore there is an impulse to assist them in their goals.

Second, elephants might be considered as us” - not a huge reach when pets can reach that status.

Third, there are impulses to approve of and reward “good” behaviour.so if helping elephants is seen as “good” then doing it may well ave benefits.

Fourth, as a consequence of the third there are impulses to act in ways considered “good” even if there is no benefit.
All of those points do not answer the issue of how they promote ourselves or our gene pool. I'm not denying that altruism and empathy evolve in a culture. However, they evolve in contradiction to Darwinian principles of survival of the fittest or even survival of the gene pool.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2402 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2023 2:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2432 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2023 12:19 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2420 of 3694 (910961)
05-29-2023 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2403 by Tangle
05-13-2023 3:20 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
There's absolutely no reason why your 'understanding' is the correct one - it's purely random chance that you were born into a part of Western culture that uses a particular form of Christian book at this time and interprets it in a particular way. 500 years ago it would have been 'understood' in a way you wouldn't recognise and in 500 years time it will be different again. It's a human invention that changes as human culture developes. It's US that change, not your 'understanding' or the meaning of what was written by unknown human authors thousands of years ago by ignorant and superstitious desert tribes.
I have no doubt that my understanding of the Bible is flawed in one way or another. I simply don't know on which way my views are flawed. I frankly don't worship my way of understanding the Bible. Yes, I do use the Bible as a way to help me understand the nature of God and his desires for humanity primarily through the life of the man Jesus.
Ultimately it is about faith and my belief that there is a God who cares for us, has an ultimate plan for creation and desires that we our foundation for how we live our lives is based on the so called "Golden Rule"
I accept that the Bible is written by fallible human beings and not always well intentioned ones as we can see in the promotion of genocide and public stoning. So yes, every Christian has things that they will disagree on and as our world evolves so will our beliefs. In the last 70 years or so there has been a great deal more emphasis based on the cultures and times in which the Biblical texts were written and as a result much of our theological thinking is evolving.
As far as my believing in the God I desire goes, the question is why is that the case. Is it because I concocted my ideal of how I want God to be or is it because that "still small voice of God" has influenced me to desire that nature for God?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2403 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2023 3:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2423 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2023 2:34 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2421 of 3694 (910962)
05-29-2023 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2404 by PaulK
05-13-2023 4:04 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
Except you never bother to understand your sources. Skim reading a Wikipedia page and getting even that wrong is not my idea of research or caring about the truth.

I know that you claim to have done more reading about the selfish gene concept but your actual posting record fits much better with just skimming the Wikipedia page. It’s been more than ten years and you still have problems with the basic concept.
Give me a break. I have done more than skim wiki pages. Yes, just like everyone else here I find quotes that are consistent with my conclusions.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2404 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2023 4:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2424 by PaulK, posted 05-29-2023 2:36 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 2422 of 3694 (910964)
05-29-2023 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2406 by Tangle
05-15-2023 5:32 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
When you look at the world, how it works and how all life here suffers and dies, do you see intelligence?
Absolutely and along with the suffering and death I see a life form that is called to minimize suffering.
I also understand a world where there is only physical death and not the death of the self.
Do you see a world where intelligence exists that is not the result of intelligence?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2406 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2023 5:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2423 of 3694 (910965)
05-29-2023 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2420 by GDR
05-29-2023 2:20 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
As far as my believing in the God I desire goes, the question is why is that the case. Is it because I concocted my ideal of how I want God to be
Yes of course, that's why there are so many gods and why they change as society changes. We invent our own gods to suit our personal needs.
or is it because that "still small voice of God" has influenced me to desire that nature for God?
There is no voice, still or otherwise. Obviously.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2420 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2438 by GDR, posted 06-10-2023 2:56 PM Tangle has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 2424 of 3694 (910966)
05-29-2023 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2421 by GDR
05-29-2023 2:22 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
Give me a break. I have done more than skim wiki pages.
I go by what you write and the level of understanding you show. Form that, so far as I can tell, skimming a Wikipedia page is all you’ve done on the subject. If the only thing you quote is Wikipedia and you don’t even fully understand the quote - or the most basic facts - then what else am I to conclude? That you know better? That you’re lying ?
quote:
Yes, just like everyone else here I find quotes that are consistent with my conclusions.
Not like everyone else. Most of us regard quote mining as a bad thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2421 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2425 by Phat, posted 05-29-2023 3:26 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 2439 by GDR, posted 06-10-2023 2:59 PM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2425 of 3694 (910968)
05-29-2023 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2424 by PaulK
05-29-2023 2:36 PM


Canary In A Quote Mine
PaulK writes:
Most of us regard quote mining as a bad thing.
Wellll Excuuuuse Me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2424 by PaulK, posted 05-29-2023 2:36 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2426 by kjsimons, posted 05-29-2023 3:34 PM Phat has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


(1)
Message 2426 of 3694 (910969)
05-29-2023 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2425 by Phat
05-29-2023 3:26 PM


Re: Canary In A Quote Mine
No, we will not excuse you or anyone else for quote mining, as that is basically lying and is not an honest attempt at discussion or discourse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2425 by Phat, posted 05-29-2023 3:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2427 by Phat, posted 05-29-2023 6:43 PM kjsimons has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2427 of 3694 (910976)
05-29-2023 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2426 by kjsimons
05-29-2023 3:34 PM


Re: Canary In A Quote Mine
We? We schmee....I recognize no group authority here.kick rocks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2426 by kjsimons, posted 05-29-2023 3:34 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2428 by Theodoric, posted 05-29-2023 7:21 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 2429 by kjsimons, posted 05-29-2023 7:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2444 by candle2, posted 06-14-2023 2:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 2428 of 3694 (910977)
05-29-2023 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2427 by Phat
05-29-2023 6:43 PM


Re: Canary In A Quote Mine
And you wonder why you get no respect here.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2427 by Phat, posted 05-29-2023 6:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


(2)
Message 2429 of 3694 (910978)
05-29-2023 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2427 by Phat
05-29-2023 6:43 PM


Re: Canary In A Quote Mine
So you are a man of no integrity then but we all already knew that per your posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2427 by Phat, posted 05-29-2023 6:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 2430 of 3694 (910991)
05-30-2023 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2410 by AZPaul3
05-17-2023 3:33 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
Hi Paul,
Paul writes:
Did science exist before humans described it?
Do you think some school of T-rex's came up with it first?
I have a follow up question to Phats question.
Did gravity exist before the earth was inhabited?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2410 by AZPaul3, posted 05-17-2023 3:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2431 by dwise1, posted 05-30-2023 10:01 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 2434 by AZPaul3, posted 05-31-2023 2:59 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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