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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2417 of 3694 (910836)
05-18-2023 3:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 2415 by Phat
05-18-2023 3:26 PM
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Re: Selective Bias
Phat writes: Why are you conflating Christianity at large with a cult leader? Were's the conflation? this is a Christian belief system. They believe exactly what you believe with the only addition being that they think it's best to kill yourself early to meet Jesus rather than wait.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2415 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 3:26 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2423 of 3694 (910965)
05-29-2023 2:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 2420 by GDR
05-29-2023 2:20 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: As far as my believing in the God I desire goes, the question is why is that the case. Is it because I concocted my ideal of how I want God to be Yes of course, that's why there are so many gods and why they change as society changes. We invent our own gods to suit our personal needs.
or is it because that "still small voice of God" has influenced me to desire that nature for God? There is no voice, still or otherwise. Obviously.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2420 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:20 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2438 by GDR, posted 06-10-2023 2:56 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2436 of 3694 (911054)
06-06-2023 3:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 2435 by GDR
06-05-2023 6:29 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: Obviously you see the end of life as we know it to be the absolute end. After death it is timeless oblivion. I'm not meaning human life, I'm talking about ALL life. Everything that has ever lived has died. In order to live at all everything that's alive has had to compete to with other life just to do it. In order to survive most of the organisms that have ever lived have had to kill and consume other living organisms. That's a process that's consumed who knows how many trillions of organisms over billions of years. On the scale of things humans are a tiny and utterly insignificant life form that also has to compete, kill just to survive at all - and then simply die anyway. I have no idea how you can think that this massively inefficient, cruel and haphazard system is designed at all, let alone designed by a being that is supposed to love us.
Do you wish you had never been born. I'd suggest that the vast majority of people are glad they have been given the life even if this is all there is. You can count me in on that and I have been able to be involved in a number of happy descendants.
Yes, I believe that my consciousness in some way lives on but either way I am grateful to have been born. I'm struggling to understand why you think that this is an argument for a beneficent creator. No sane human would design such an evil system like this let alone a god.
None of this is meant to minimize the suffering that does exist but also we shouldn't ignore the joy people have in their lives. Just look at the joy that Tanypteryx is experiencing with the birth of his first great grand child. Again, what has that got to do with it? The fact that we humans can extract some pleasures from this appalling system does nothing to explain why it has been set up so that that is all we get. And, of course, if just ignores the suffering of the rest of nature for all those billions of years. Surely you can see that you're simply falling for a human-made rationalisation of why things are set up the way they are. This 'veil of suffering' must have a purpose beyond what it actually is so primitive people invent a better life after death. It makes no sense at all does it? Why not invent the better place to start with? Why make this 100% genocidal system for all life for ever?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2435 by GDR, posted 06-05-2023 6:29 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2441 by GDR, posted 06-10-2023 3:24 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2442 of 3694 (911116)
06-10-2023 4:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 2441 by GDR
06-10-2023 3:24 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: My point was that there is suffering but there is also a lot of joy to be found. Right. I just described the fact that all of life for billions of years has suffered and died just in order to survive itself. It has to consume other life just to live itself. All life that has ever been has died and all life that there will ever be will die. All so that a few humans that have only been around a few thousand years can find a moment of joy every now and again? Really? You're just going to shrug it off like that?
In the end Christianity as I understand it makes more sense to me than any other religious or non-religious belief about or lives and the world we live in. And it's just a happy accident that you were born to Christian parents in a Christian country? None of this bothers you at all?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2441 by GDR, posted 06-10-2023 3:24 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2447 of 3694 (911179)
06-16-2023 9:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 2446 by candle2
06-16-2023 8:45 AM
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Re: Canary In A Quote Mine
candle2 writes: Evolutionists on this forum can laugh at creationists, but when someone makes fun of their precious Darwin they suddenly become very defensive. Nope, we get annoyed by creationists making idiotic statements about evolution. You know that Darwin has been dead for over 150 years? He's a hero of ours because he was the first to discover that life evolved but the science left him behind long ago. He's not our Jesus. We don't read his book for scientific insight or get on our knees in worship. He's of historic interest only now. And by the way, had Darwin not discovered evolution, someone else would because it's just a fact of life.
It should work both ways.
It does work both ways but when you make truly stupid statements about facts you'll get laughed at all day long. If you want to get any respect here, you need to properly understand what it is you're fighting. There's no point talking rubbish about things you don't understand - you'll get called out every time.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2446 by candle2, posted 06-16-2023 8:45 AM | | candle2 has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2450 of 3694 (911190)
06-17-2023 11:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 2448 by candle2
06-17-2023 9:55 AM
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Re: Canary In A Quote Mine
candle2 writes: Tangle, someone else did think of evolution. Darwin stole the idea from his grandfather. The idea of evolution had be around for some time, many people had spoken about. Patrick Matthew actually wrote about it. But only Darwin developed the theory with evidence and the mechanism - natural selection. But you're making my point for me. If Darwin hadn't developed the idea, Wallace would have and if not Wallace then someone else. It's not the name put to the discovery that matters, it's the theory that results and develops from it.
Most competent geneticists and biologists today know
that organisms are pre-programmed to adapt to new
environments in a few generations. Oh dear.
Epigenetics states that genes can be influenced by
behavior and environment (diets) [...] There is no known observable process by which information can be added to the genetic code of
organisms. This is not a minor issue. It is imperative. I'm going to leave it to others to explain epigenetics works and how mutation CAN add information to the gene pool. If they can find the patience
I get annoyed by those who claim that evolution is a
proven fact, supported by science. Then you're going to remain angry for life.
I get annoyed when evolutionists cannot give examples
of life coming from non-life. You could reduce your anger somewhat by understanding that evolution is not abiogenesis.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2448 by candle2, posted 06-17-2023 9:55 AM | | candle2 has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2453 of 3694 (911221)
06-19-2023 11:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 2452 by candle2
06-19-2023 9:48 AM
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Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canary In A Quote Mine
candle2 writes: If the Genesis account in chapters 1 through 11 are not to be taken literally, how can we regard any of the Bible literally? And therein lies the rub. If you insist on taking the bible literally you look a fool - the earth is provably not 6,000 years old, the earth has never flooded and species are provably not immutable. But if you take the bible as a metaphor you can interpret it anyway you like. Which is why there are 38,000 Christian sects and why Christianity is in permanent schism.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2452 by candle2, posted 06-19-2023 9:48 AM | | candle2 has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2459 of 3694 (911234)
06-20-2023 11:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 2457 by candle2
06-20-2023 8:41 AM
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Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canary In A Quote Mine
candle2 writes: Tangle, I do believe in the Bible, and I do not mind being called a fool. You're a fool for believing that the earth is only 6,000 years old. The rest just adds to it. Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2457 by candle2, posted 06-20-2023 8:41 AM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2463 of 3694 (911241)
06-20-2023 12:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 2461 by candle2
06-20-2023 12:31 PM
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Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canary In A Quote Mine
candle2 writes: Tangle, in 1902, Stewart R.A. Macalister began excavation on a hill in Gezer etc etc If you think the earth is 6,000 years old, you got a long way to go to get me interested in this other dumb stuff..
Even Darwin realized that without transitional fossils his
theory would fall apart. Of course he did, he was quite a smart guy and gave the world several ways of providing the theory wrong. And since then, we've found dozens of 'transitional' fossils. Should I get ChatGPT to print out a list for you?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2461 by candle2, posted 06-20-2023 12:31 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2469 of 3694 (911249)
06-20-2023 5:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 2468 by candle2
06-20-2023 5:33 PM
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Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canary In A Quote Mine
candle2 writes: Tangle, A 1967 excavation of a building (temple) in Tell Deir Alla, Jordan resulted in another piece of proof for the Bible's historical accuracy. I think you must be deaf. I'm not remotely interested in this twaddle. You believe that the earth is 6,000 years old, that there was a worldwide flood that killed everything 4,000 years ago. You think that all the animals and plants alive now were put there by a god as we see them today and haven't ever changed. You think that Adam and Eve were real people. Talking snakes and burning bushes? You only believe all this nonsense because of a really twisted and medieval interpretation of a 2,000 year old myth. You're a crazy fundamentalist and you're pretending you know anything at all about epigenesis? You're not talking to your half-witted believers now.Try harder.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2468 by candle2, posted 06-20-2023 5:33 PM | | candle2 has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2475 of 3694 (911256)
06-21-2023 10:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 2474 by candle2
06-21-2023 9:25 AM
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Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canary In A Quote Mine
candle2 writes: I do not know how old the earth is, and neither does anyone else. If they say that they do they are lying. For the earth to be anything other than 4.54bn+/- years old, pretty much all of science would need to be wrong. But it isn't, if it was nothing would work the way we see it working and our civilisation would have failed.
Adam and all organisms were created roughly 6000 years
ago. The Bible counts this out for us. Provably wrong. Total religious fiction.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2474 by candle2, posted 06-21-2023 9:25 AM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2480 of 3694 (911261)
06-21-2023 1:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 2479 by PaulK
06-21-2023 12:52 PM
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Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canary In A Quote Mine
He's a medieval throwback.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2479 by PaulK, posted 06-21-2023 12:52 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2488 of 3694 (911270)
06-22-2023 3:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 2478 by candle2
06-21-2023 12:39 PM
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Re: Canary In A Quote Mine
candle2 writes: Tangle, when Satan took his demons and ascended into heaven, he was prepared to fight against God in order to get his way. Once upon a time, in a faraway land, there lived a beautiful princess named Cinderella. She possessed an enchanting grace that captivated the hearts of all who laid eyes upon her. […] And everyone lived happily ever after.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2478 by candle2, posted 06-21-2023 12:39 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2490 of 3694 (911280)
06-22-2023 5:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 2489 by candle2
06-22-2023 4:51 PM
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Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canaryn A Quote Mine
Candle2, once upon a time, in a faraway kingdom, there lived a humble woodcutter and his daughter, Rose. One day, while wandering through the enchanted forest, Rose stumbled upon a hidden cottage, inhabited by a family of talking animals. Little did she know, this chance encounter would set her on a magical journey filled with love, courage, and the power to change her destiny forever. As Rose embarked on her quest, she encountered a mischievous pixie who offered her a golden key, promising that it would unlock the secrets to her heart's desires. With unwavering determination, Rose ventured through treacherous lands and faced daunting challenges, guided by her pure heart and the belief that true magic resides within. [...] In the end, Rose's selflessness and bravery triumphed over darkness, and she not only discovered her own inner strength but also brought harmony and happiness to the kingdom. And so, her name became legendary, forever remembered as the hero who restored the light and brought the enchanting tale to life.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2489 by candle2, posted 06-22-2023 4:51 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2492 of 3694 (911282)
06-22-2023 6:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 2491 by Phat
06-22-2023 5:57 PM
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Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canaryn A Quote Mine
Phat writes: Oh stop! That's not similar to the Bible at all!
Sure they are, they're both pure story-telling human invention.
You must ask yourself why you feel the need to say such things.
he's telling me fairy tales, I'm telling him some.
We fully understand that you have the position that all beliefs are but myths and fables, but your need to emphasize this shows me that you are but reinforcing your lack of belief.
Alternatively I'm pointing out that his biblical stories are identical to children's fairy stories.
candle2:
when Satan took his demons and ascended into
heaven, he was prepared to fight against God in order to
get his way.
Satan is no match for God. However, in order for him to
be willing to fight God he must have been incredibly
powerful.
God could have ended Satan with a wave of His hand,
but He allowed Michael and the other angels to defeat
him.
The solar system and most likely the entire universe was
damaged. Satan and his demons were forced back to
earth.
Do you get it yet Phat?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2491 by Phat, posted 06-22-2023 5:57 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2494 by Phat, posted 06-23-2023 8:02 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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