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Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Tanypteryx
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Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2401 of 3694 (910777)
05-12-2023 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2400 by AZPaul3
05-12-2023 9:52 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
What do you mean by an 'open' future?
It means something is going to happen.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2400 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:52 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2402 of 3694 (910778)
05-13-2023 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 2397 by GDR
05-12-2023 7:43 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
How does donating to a cause dedicated to the survival of elephants in Africa benefit my gene pool?
For someone who claims to have read a lot about this, you still seem unable to understand basic points. First it is not necessary that the basic impulses guarantee benefit even in the environment where they evolved. Second, behaviour is built up around those impulses. - there are cultural factors too. Third, the environment of the modern world is sufficiently different to the distant past so mismatches are expected. Fourth there are complications.
One important thing to note is that the gift of money usually has a negligible cost to the giver. Which is rather a relevant fact. Or to put it another way as “sacrificial love” goes it isn’t much of a sacrifice.
So there are in fact a number of possible explanations. Just off the top of my head I can see four issues - which are not exclusive.
First, the charity might be seen as “us” and therefore there is an impulse to assist them in their goals.
Second, elephants might be considered as us” - not a huge reach when pets can reach that status.
Third, there are impulses to approve of and reward “good” behaviour.so if helping elephants is seen as “good” then doing it may well ave benefits.
Fourth, as a consequence of the third there are impulses to act in ways considered “good” even if there is no benefit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2397 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:43 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2419 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:00 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2403 of 3694 (910779)
05-13-2023 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2398 by GDR
05-12-2023 7:52 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I understand the Bible as 66 different books written in context of different times and cultures and by a wide assortment of people.
The Protestant bible has 66 books, but
quote:
The Ethiopian Bible, which is perhaps the oldest Christian Bible, includes somewhere between 81 to 84 books, depending on different factors. The Roman Catholic Bible has 73 books, and the Greek Orthodox Bible—without an official number—is somewhat larger, with somewhere between 75 and 79 books. The Syriac Bible also has quite a wide range of different books. And the Protestant Bible (which in some ways American culture prioritizes) has 66 books—39 of an ‘Old Testament,’ and 27 of a ‘New Testament.’ If one would total all of the books in these different collections, there would be a total of around 100 books, far more than the 27 books of the Christian New Testament and the range of 5 to 39 books in the Hebrew Bible.
Are There More than 66 Books in the Bible? | The Bible and Beyond Blog
That excludes the books that got left out for various political and random reasons.
As you say, people have 'understood' the bible in different ways and are still doing it. They 'understand' it in the ways that suit them and each 'knows' that their way of ‘understanding' it is the right way. People adapt and create their own wildly different meaning on it. They create institutions from the differences, schism and form traditions and go to war about them. It's all very, very human.
Even within the same set of books there are three fundamentally different belief structures to 'understand' - Jew, Muslim and Christian form different 'understandings'.
And that's just this one tradition with its book, there are literally hundreds of other so called Holy Books that different religious groups 'understand' in their own way.
List of religious texts - Wikipedia
There's absolutely no reason why your 'understanding' is the correct one - it's purely random chance that you were born into a part of Western culture that uses a particular form of Christian book at this time and interprets it in a particular way. 500 years ago it would have been 'understood' in a way you wouldn't recognise and in 500 years time it will be different again. It's a human invention that changes as human culture developes. It's US that change, not your 'understanding' or the meaning of what was written by unknown human authors thousands of years ago by ignorant and superstitious desert tribes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2398 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2420 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2404 of 3694 (910780)
05-13-2023 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 2398 by GDR
05-12-2023 7:52 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
No I don't. I merely quote basic concepts as written by those who do understand it.
Except you never bother to understand your sources. Skim reading a Wikipedia page and getting even that wrong is not my idea of research or caring about the truth.
I know that you claim to have done more reading about the selfish gene concept but your actual posting record fits much better with just skimming the Wikipedia page. It’s been more than ten years and you still have problems with the basic concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2398 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2421 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:22 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2405 of 3694 (910801)
05-15-2023 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2399 by AZPaul3
05-12-2023 9:34 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
So the first process came into existence out of nothing.
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe. Maybe not. No one knows.

I'm sure you would like to recommend something. That would be in keeping with your need for heartfelt fantasy to explain deep human ignorance.
Of course no one knows. I simply believe that at the root of everything is intelligence. You're answer is simply to reject what I believe to be the case essentially saying you don't believe anything. Bit of a cop-out im my opinion.
It also seems to me that if you reject an intelligent first cause then the automatic default position is a non-intelligent root.
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe quantum gravity (or something else) will show us what is on the other side of T=0. If so, it may not show "The Beginnings Of Everything," but just another emergent magisterium with its own reality.

If a major consensus of the experts comes out to say "Yes, this is the answer to T=0," then we will know, tentatively (as with all things science). If such strong undeniable evidence is not shown then there will be no consensus. We will not know, yet, and the studies will continue
Once again, science of the gaps You have to come up with subjective scenarios to fit your beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2399 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:34 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2406 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2023 5:32 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2433 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2023 1:21 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2406 of 3694 (910803)
05-15-2023 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2405 by GDR
05-15-2023 5:19 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I simply believe that at the root of everything is intelligence.
When you look at the world, how it works and how all life here suffers and dies, do you see intelligence?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2405 by GDR, posted 05-15-2023 5:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2422 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:29 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 2435 by GDR, posted 06-05-2023 6:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2407 of 3694 (910804)
05-15-2023 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2400 by AZPaul3
05-12-2023 9:52 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul32 writes:
How does random create/equate to free will? What do you mean by an 'open' future? What's the alternative?
We know that randomness is a feature of our evolution. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have heard in the past that if we were to know enough about all the information of every aspect of our universe we could accurately predict the future.
I would venture to say that the future is yet to be determined and can be predicted, but that it is unknowable, regardless of how much information we have.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2400 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2408 by AZPaul3, posted 05-15-2023 11:05 PM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2408 of 3694 (910808)
05-15-2023 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2407 by GDR
05-15-2023 5:40 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
You're answer is simply to reject what I believe to be the case essentially saying you don't believe anything. Bit of a cop-out im my opinion.
Cop-out? What obligation did I miss? What evasion have I committed? And I was right. You did recommend something. You recommended a universal intelligence. So my cop-out was in not believing your crap? That’s not cop-out, that is sanity.
Of course I reject what you believe. You have no reason, other than your emotional wants, to believe it. My beliefs don't enter into the matter. Only the physics. And, again, that’s not cop-out, that’s discussion.
It also seems to me that if you reject an intelligent first cause then the automatic default position is a non-intelligent root.
Really. You think this binary problem comes down to these two? Does this observation enlighten the situation in some way?
Once again, science of the gaps You have to come up with subjective scenarios to fit your beliefs.
Not subjective at all since there are no beliefs to fit. After stating “we don’t know”, my personal speculations mean nothing. They are not beliefs. I wasn’t proposing, hypothesizing or trying to fill any gaps in our science.
I was speculating that, in answering your question on quantum gravity, it may not show us any ultimate answers but just the next layer down. You are still free to hide the evidence of your god(s), to hide the evidence of this universal intelligence, in any gaps that science presents for you.
And I am still free to cop-out of agreeing with you by calling it a load of unevidenced emotional dung.
AZPaul3 writes:
How does random create/equate to free will? What do you mean by an 'open' future? What's the alternative?
We know that randomness is a feature of our evolution.
Ok. Put that randomness into the reality of actual physics and say this ... chemistry, which includes all the particles and forces and a calculable degree of randomness, is the overriding feature of our evolution.
The randomness I hear you talking about are more commonly called screw-ups in the process.
At this position on the quantum/macro scale quantum randomness is not even a bit player. The EM field created by the molecules is what bends the protein, not anything random. And the consistent electrochemistry of the folded protein, with a periodic screw-up here or there, is what makes evolution work.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I have heard in the past that if we were to know enough about all the information of every aspect of our universe we could accurately predict the future.
Oh you probably did hear that. We can still hear that twaddle from time to time. That was pre-QM.
As usual, the determinist view is dependent on context. We can determine where this planet will (most likely) be a year from now ... a hundred thousand years from now. But we can't determine where the electron will be a split-second after leaving our detector. Somewhere in that scale, at about our size, we get to consciously affect the probabilities of some future events and free will, then, seems to become an emergent property of that intellectual ability.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2407 by GDR, posted 05-15-2023 5:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2409 by Phat, posted 05-17-2023 3:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2437 by GDR, posted 06-10-2023 2:14 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2409 of 3694 (910822)
05-17-2023 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2408 by AZPaul3
05-15-2023 11:05 PM


AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
AZ Conclusions writes:
What obligation did I miss? What evasion have I committed? And I was right. You did recommend something. You recommended a universal intelligence. So my cop-out was in not believing your crap? That’s not cop-out, that is sanity.
Your cop out was in refusing to falsify the premise. You assume that no universal intelligence is the default position.
Essentially you deify science. Tell me. Did science exist before humans described it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2408 by AZPaul3, posted 05-15-2023 11:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2410 by AZPaul3, posted 05-17-2023 3:33 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2410 of 3694 (910823)
05-17-2023 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2409 by Phat
05-17-2023 3:15 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
You assume that no universal intelligence is the default position.
As with all science, unless there is evidence something may be there, then, there is no reason to entertain its existence. With your level of evidence, which is none, your ghosts' non-existence is the default position, until you can show otherwise, yes.
Essentially you deify science.
As if you would know.
Did science exist before humans described it?
Do you think some school of T-rex's came up with it first?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2409 by Phat, posted 05-17-2023 3:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2411 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 1:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2430 by ICANT, posted 05-30-2023 9:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2411 of 3694 (910825)
05-18-2023 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2410 by AZPaul3
05-17-2023 3:33 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
Phat writes:
Did science exist before humans described it?
Do you think some school of T-rex's came up with it first?
Highly doubtful. My point is that the math and physics laws that govern science did in fact exist before humans discovered the formula for such laws. If science could exist without humans, why couldn't God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2410 by AZPaul3, posted 05-17-2023 3:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2412 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2023 8:55 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2412 of 3694 (910830)
05-18-2023 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 2411 by Phat
05-18-2023 1:58 AM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
My point is that the math and physics laws that govern science did in fact exist before humans discovered the formula for such laws.
And the "Piano Man" existed before Billy Joel was born. Joel just "discovered" the relationships between the notes.
If science could exist without humans, why couldn't God?
It couldn't. He doesn't.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2411 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 1:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2416 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 3:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2413 of 3694 (910831)
05-18-2023 12:34 PM


Why would anyone choose this stupid Christian faith let alone follow it to their deaths?
Kenya cult: Children targeted to die first, pastor says - BBC News

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2414 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2023 2:59 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 2415 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 3:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2414 of 3694 (910832)
05-18-2023 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2413 by Tangle
05-18-2023 12:34 PM


Why would anyone choose this stupid Christian faith let alone follow it to their deaths?
There is a higher intelligence involved cleaning some stupid from the gene pool.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2413 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2023 12:34 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2415 of 3694 (910833)
05-18-2023 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2413 by Tangle
05-18-2023 12:34 PM


Selective Bias
Why are you conflating Christianity at large with a cult leader?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2413 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2023 12:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2417 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2023 3:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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