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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1743 of 1864 (910187)
04-18-2023 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1741 by Dredge
04-18-2023 5:48 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
That where the delusion of meaning comes in ... 99.99% of atheists have to delude themselves that their life has meaning bcoz they lack the courage to face up to the implications of their beliefs ... that life is meaningless.
Uh? You're telling me that my life is meaningless? I think you need to do a bit of thinking about that. Start with the point that I find stacks of meaning in my life and so does most of Northern Europe. Weird how 99.99%of us here aren't killing ourselves.
I've no doubt that some atheists do suicide bcoz they correctly realize the logical implication of their atheist belief - ie, life is utterly meaningless (a recipe for suicide if ever there was one).
So let me remind you yet again that an atheist is someone that doesn't believe in god(s). Apart from that we're pretty much human.
One way atheists attempt to inject meaning into their meaningless lives is by investing in a code of pseudo-morality based on equality (started the so-called Enlightenment),
which serves as a replacement for religion.
Good to know lawyer. Just for your education, your Jesus was a poster child for equality. Remember do as you would be done by? Love your neighbour as thyself? The first shall be last and the last shall be first? Eye of the needle, sheep from goats. the good Pharisee?
Read you bible lawyer. Us atheists are big fans of its message.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1741 by Dredge, posted 04-18-2023 5:48 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1745 by Dredge, posted 04-18-2023 6:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1747 of 1864 (910195)
04-19-2023 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1745 by Dredge
04-18-2023 6:53 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
Some athesits are smart enough and courageous enough to recognise that their atheism implies life is meaningless ...
We all are lawyer. Life IS meaningless, we all find our own meaning. You find meaning in a 2000 year old myth of a redeemer that never arrived, we find meaning in reality.
Most people in previously Christian Europe no longer believe in a Christian god of the bible. On average, 26% of people in Europe are atheists. It's pretty obvious that somehow or other we atheists are getting along just fine with the knowledge that this is all there is.
Don't waste your life hating lawyer, it just makes you angry and unhappy.
Turns out that religious beliefs are a minor part of what gives meaning to our lives - even amongst believers.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1745 by Dredge, posted 04-18-2023 6:53 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1751 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 5:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1752 of 1864 (910233)
04-19-2023 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1751 by Dredge
04-19-2023 5:11 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
Wtf??? Life "IS meaningless " but it can also have meaning?
Life itself is meaningless; there is no ulterior purpose.
Given that we are alive for a while, we find things that matter to us and call that meaning. Some people like you find some meaning in ancient myth, some like me don't. We all find things that matter to us.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1751 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 5:11 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1754 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 6:59 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1755 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 7:04 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1763 of 1864 (910254)
04-20-2023 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1754 by Dredge
04-19-2023 6:59 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
In other words. life is meaningless, but let's pretend it isn't.
Well you're halfway there.
Life has no purpose beyond itself. The fact that we exist is purely chance, but because we're conscious beings we are all mostly able to find a sense of purpose and meaning.
As I've shown you, belief in an afterlife can be one of them, but it's a minority one even in those that are believers. Family and friendships top the table.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1754 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 6:59 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1765 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:15 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 1766 of 1864 (910264)
04-20-2023 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1765 by Dredge
04-20-2023 9:15 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
Sorry, but you're not making an sense to me. if "Life itself is meaningless", as you say, then everything you do in life is meaningless.
Well let's have another try.
The first thing - and it's a simple fact that I ask you to accept - I'm an atheist. A hard atheist, that's one that not only doesn't believe that there are god(s) but also believes strongly that there are no gods. Different concepts but don't worry if you don't understand the difference, just accept that I'm as far to the the right of the bell curve as it's possible to be as an atheist.
I'm also not stupid; I have three degrees in radically different disciples, two at Master's level, one from Cambridge University, England.
Ok so far?
I'm also very happy. I'm long time married with kids, a good job that I like (in fact it's my own business), plenty of savings, a nice paid for house in a nice neighbourhood and good friends. I live in a modern western democracy with freedom to do pretty much what I like, free health care and education and a corruption free criminal justice system and I'm still healthy. In fact, I won the lottery of life.
I have meaning in my life - plenty of meaning, life is good, I enjoy life
I'm asking you to accept that - atheist, not stupid, happy with meaning in my life - ok, got it?
So what isn't making sense to you now? Is it because your priest told you that people can't find meaning without god? If so he's wrong isn't he?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1765 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:15 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1767 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 11:55 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1771 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 7:00 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1773 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:00 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1775 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:10 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1785 by candle2, posted 04-21-2023 9:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1768 of 1864 (910268)
04-20-2023 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1767 by AZPaul3
04-20-2023 11:55 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Yeh, I did consider adding that my lack of militant atheism doesn't quite put me at the really narrow end of the curve but that seemed a bit picky.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1767 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 11:55 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1783 of 1864 (910316)
04-21-2023 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1773 by Dredge
04-20-2023 9:00 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
Happiness and experiences don't add up to meaning. You're just a bunch of molecules that is here today and will be gone tomorrow, so you have no more meaning than a bag of mud.

If you come from nothing and go back to nothing, whatever happens in between (life) is also nothing. You're sense of meaning is just an illogical (and meaningless) delusion.
I was wondering when you'd have to resort to arguing about the meaning of words rather than the substantive argument.
What I and others here have said many times is that we find meaning in our lives. That's a statement of fact.
But since life is meaningless (according to atheism), it doesn't matter if you live your life in a fog of delusion.
We've also said that there is no ultimate purpose for life being here at all. They are two different statements aren't they?
We're saying that even though life itself has no ultimate purpose, we can find meaning for ourselves in being alive. And that's enough for us. We don't need to create an imaginary purpose for life in order to find meaning in our own lives.
Anything goes, coz everything means nothing..
Another factually wrong statement. Quite clearly 'anything' does not go. Despite being an atheist I lead a very Christian life. Can you square that circle, lawyer? Why am I not a murdering rapist?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1773 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:00 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1787 of 1864 (910330)
04-21-2023 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1785 by candle2
04-21-2023 9:32 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
As a hard-core atheist you cannot rely on theistic
evolution to explain the origin of life.
That's why I, and no scientist, regardless of belief, relies on the Theory of Evolution (theistic or otherwise) to explain the origin of life. The ToE has nothing to say about the origin of life. That will be on my gravestone and creationists will still be getting it wrong.
You sir, must explain in detail how the first life originated.
Must I? Why, because you demand it? What if I don't know?
I am not going to give you a pass on this.
And why should I care about that?
If you cannot explain how life originated, NO, more than
that, you must prove how the first life began, or admit to
everyone on this site that you cannot.
I am very happy to explain that I do not know how life began and what's more no one on earth does. There are some hypotheses but so far it's not understood and, what's more, it possibly never will be
What you believe is based on nothing but blind faith. It
has nothing to do with real science.
Like all creationists, you're terribly confused about pretty much everything about atheism, the ToE and what science is.
Atheism is a LACK of belief in god(s). What is it that you think I believe and how is science is involved?
Life does not come from nonlife. Life coming from
preexisting life is the only fact that is verified.Observable science verifies my assertion time and time
and time again.
And therefore what? That Christ didn't rise from the dead?
Have you considered what arguments you'd use for when replicating life IS formed from chemistry? It's only a matter of time you know.
quote:
Spontaneous Emergence of Self-Replicating Molecules Containing Nucleobases and Amino Acids
Spontaneous Emergence of Self-Replicating Molecules Containing Nucleobases and Amino Acids - PMC

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1785 by candle2, posted 04-21-2023 9:32 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1789 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2023 5:03 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1791 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2023 5:24 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1817 by candle2, posted 04-28-2023 8:15 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1793 of 1864 (910377)
04-21-2023 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1789 by Dredge
04-21-2023 5:03 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
In other words, you believe there is no god(s).
This is my fault for not trying to get you to understand the difference between a non-belief in god(s) and believing that there are no gods.
I wonder if I have the energy to do that? Maybe not, but what the hell.
A non-belief in god(s) - ie atheism - is a negative thing; it's a nothing, an absence. Like you have a non-belief in hundreds, maybe thousands of gods. You don't even think about Vishnu do you? It's not that you don't believe in Vishnu, you've never even considered Vishnu. You may not even have heard of Vishnu, Vishnu is a nothing to you. If asked, you'd say that of course you don't believe in Vishnu, but until that point you didn't know that you even could have a belief in Vishnu.
That's a non-belief and also an ignorance that a belief was even possible.
Atheists just have a non-belief in gods generally - even the ones they know about.
Now, I also believe that there are no gods. That's a positive thing. I can't possibly know that that is true so in that respect it's irrational. But that's what beliefs are, they're irrationally held opinion. I can give you evidence for my belief and argue my position but in the end it's a belief and therefore personally interesting but worthless as far as knowledge goes.
Why are you so hung up on admitting that you have beliefs? Weird.
I have no hang-ups admitting my beliefs; I've discussed my beliefs many times here. What is it that you think I have to admit to?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1789 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2023 5:03 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1794 of 1864 (910378)
04-21-2023 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1791 by Dredge
04-21-2023 5:24 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
Puny science will always be clueless about abiogenesis,
Emotive language but sure, we may well never know how life started.
but you forgot to mention that the process that produced the life-form changes evident in the fossil record (often referred to as "evolution") is also unknown and can never be known. Science can't even know what happened, let alone explain how it happened.
Well no, we DO know the processes of evolution, that's why there is a thing called the Theory of Evolution.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1791 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2023 5:24 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1795 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2023 6:22 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1805 of 1864 (910434)
04-22-2023 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1804 by Tanypteryx
04-22-2023 5:22 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Tany writes:
Good grief, I already told how evolution happens. Reproduction and descent with modification, genetics and natural selection. That's what happens in each step, that's how life works.
Come on, didn't you hear the guy? He needs the complete genealogical history of the last billion years for each individual species of animal and plant that's ever existed. Genomes if possibles. Get on it, what's keeping you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1804 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 5:22 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1807 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 5:54 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1809 by Dredge, posted 04-22-2023 8:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1813 of 1864 (910447)
04-23-2023 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1809 by Dredge
04-22-2023 8:03 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
… provide a basic description of how insects evolved…
I suggest you start here.
Evolution of insects - Wikipedia
If that isn't enough, you'll find 86 references at the end of the article. If you get stuck, just ask.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1809 by Dredge, posted 04-22-2023 8:03 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1818 of 1864 (910609)
04-28-2023 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1817 by candle2
04-28-2023 8:15 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
It might be that since you promote a certain agenda that
it would be a good idea to know exactly all that it entails.
It's been said only a few thousand times so you probably missed it. Atheism is a disbelief in Gods. That's it, nothing else.
I know how life began, and I have stated so many times.
No you don't, you have a belief. Belief is not knowledge.
You, on the other hand, have not the slightest idea of how
life began.
I can't count the number of things I don't know. Somehow I get by.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1817 by candle2, posted 04-28-2023 8:15 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1819 by Phat, posted 04-29-2023 1:47 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1820 by candle2, posted 05-09-2023 9:44 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1822 of 1864 (910729)
05-09-2023 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1820 by candle2
05-09-2023 9:44 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle writes:
I do know have life started.
I think you have to do a bit of research on the diffence beteween knowledge and belief.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1820 by candle2, posted 05-09-2023 9:44 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1824 by candle2, posted 05-16-2023 8:56 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1830 by candle2, posted 05-19-2023 10:34 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1832 by candle2, posted 05-19-2023 2:47 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1835 by candle2, posted 05-20-2023 1:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1825 of 1864 (910813)
05-16-2023 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1824 by candle2
05-16-2023 8:56 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
candle2 writes:
Tangle, exactly what research will set me straight?
Start with a dictionary. Knowledge is something that can be shown to be evidentially true; a belief is something that you hope is true but there is no evidence for.
Children believe in Father Christmas, adults know he doesn't exist.
By your own admission, you are as ignorant as a rock
as to how the universe was created, or to how life
began.
And so is everybody else. We do not have that knowledge. You have a particular belief, billions believe something different. That's what happens with beliefs, you can have your own personal little story if you like. Knowledge is rather different, there is only one V=IxR.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1824 by candle2, posted 05-16-2023 8:56 AM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1826 by Phat, posted 05-17-2023 2:57 PM Tangle has replied

  
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