Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2370 of 3694 (910647)
05-01-2023 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2368 by GDR
05-01-2023 5:07 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
..and so you claim. I disagree.
Can't disagree with fact.
When you insist the evidence isn't there and continue to seek out fanciful reasoning to explain what is already known, that is intransigence. And, yes, science knows intransigence well because religionists, like yourself, exhibit it so frequently.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2368 by GDR, posted 05-01-2023 5:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2372 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 6:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2377 of 3694 (910687)
05-05-2023 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 2372 by GDR
05-04-2023 6:17 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
When you insist the evidence isn't there and continue to seek out fanciful reasoning to explain what is already known, that is intransigence. And, yes, science knows intransigence well because religionists, like yourself, exhibit it so frequently.
If that is the case then there is at least as much intransigence on the other side of the table.
What evidence from your side do I ignore? None. You have none. From there all your reasoning is incredulous emotional fantasy.
The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place.
You reach for supernatural "what if" explanations for things we already have answers for. Then you insist on an infinite regression of "why is it that way" questions until logic and reason are exhausted. There, then, you claim unevidenced, lies the divine cosmic intelligence you so desperately want there to be.
It still isn't ... not that you or anyone else in all of humanity can show. That is a big hole in your delusion that you cannot fill. You can only insist against all reality.
Intransigence.
And only on the one side, GDR. The other side has actual evidence of the reality. Insisting on reality is not intransigence. It is sanity.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2372 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 6:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2378 of 3694 (910688)
05-05-2023 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 2371 by GDR
05-04-2023 6:14 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I'm not arguing against randomness. The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place.
QFT.
Why QFT? Schrödinger.
Why Schrödinger. Heisenberg.
Why Heisenberg? Pauli
We can go on and on with this "why" bs but you will not arrive at your god's doorstep.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2371 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 6:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2390 of 3694 (910722)
05-08-2023 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2385 by GDR
05-08-2023 5:23 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
What was there prior to the processes existing?
Nothing.
Nothing happens without processes. There had to be something going on prior to T=0. We certainly don't know what processes existed but whatever they were they created what we see as our universe today.
As for finding out? Quantum gravity, whatever that turns out to be, may be able to pierce that veil. I wouldn't hold my breath, though. Personally, I don't think we will find out. Not before the hammer drops on our species.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2385 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:23 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2395 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2391 of 3694 (910723)
05-08-2023 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2386 by GDR
05-08-2023 5:26 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I agree that randomness is built into the system but out of that there are probabilities of outcome.
Exactly. That's what the Schrödinger equation is all about. The wave function of the universe. The probabilities of outcomes.
However randomness is certainly a feature of our existence and that the future is open.
Sounds like a Tibetan monk. I don't speak Tibetan monk. Would you translate, please as in ... say what?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2386 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2392 by Theodoric, posted 05-08-2023 7:41 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 2396 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2399 of 3694 (910775)
05-12-2023 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2395 by GDR
05-12-2023 7:31 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
So the first process came into existence out of nothing.
Maybe. Maybe not. No one knows.
I'm sure you would like to recommend something. That would be in keeping with your need for heartfelt fantasy to explain deep human ignorance.
Just wondering how you think we'll know then.
Maybe quantum gravity (or something else) will show us what is on the other side of T=0. If so, it may not show "The Beginnings Of Everything," but just another emergent magisterium with its own reality.
If a major consensus of the experts comes out to say "Yes, this is the answer to T=0," then we will know, tentatively (as with all things science). If such strong undeniable evidence is not shown then there will be no consensus. We will not know, yet, and the studies will continue.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2395 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2405 by GDR, posted 05-15-2023 5:19 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2400 of 3694 (910776)
05-12-2023 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2396 by GDR
05-12-2023 7:40 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I have come to believe that God created an exitance with randomness but using high probabilities.
What does it mean to "use high probabilities"? Betting up after a run of low cards?
You are semantically reaching again.
We know that there is randomness in the world and with that comes free will and an open future.
How does random create/equate to free will? What do you mean by an 'open' future? What's the alternative?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2396 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2401 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-12-2023 11:02 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 2407 by GDR, posted 05-15-2023 5:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2408 of 3694 (910808)
05-15-2023 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2407 by GDR
05-15-2023 5:40 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
You're answer is simply to reject what I believe to be the case essentially saying you don't believe anything. Bit of a cop-out im my opinion.
Cop-out? What obligation did I miss? What evasion have I committed? And I was right. You did recommend something. You recommended a universal intelligence. So my cop-out was in not believing your crap? That’s not cop-out, that is sanity.
Of course I reject what you believe. You have no reason, other than your emotional wants, to believe it. My beliefs don't enter into the matter. Only the physics. And, again, that’s not cop-out, that’s discussion.
It also seems to me that if you reject an intelligent first cause then the automatic default position is a non-intelligent root.
Really. You think this binary problem comes down to these two? Does this observation enlighten the situation in some way?
Once again, science of the gaps You have to come up with subjective scenarios to fit your beliefs.
Not subjective at all since there are no beliefs to fit. After stating “we don’t know”, my personal speculations mean nothing. They are not beliefs. I wasn’t proposing, hypothesizing or trying to fill any gaps in our science.
I was speculating that, in answering your question on quantum gravity, it may not show us any ultimate answers but just the next layer down. You are still free to hide the evidence of your god(s), to hide the evidence of this universal intelligence, in any gaps that science presents for you.
And I am still free to cop-out of agreeing with you by calling it a load of unevidenced emotional dung.
AZPaul3 writes:
How does random create/equate to free will? What do you mean by an 'open' future? What's the alternative?
We know that randomness is a feature of our evolution.
Ok. Put that randomness into the reality of actual physics and say this ... chemistry, which includes all the particles and forces and a calculable degree of randomness, is the overriding feature of our evolution.
The randomness I hear you talking about are more commonly called screw-ups in the process.
At this position on the quantum/macro scale quantum randomness is not even a bit player. The EM field created by the molecules is what bends the protein, not anything random. And the consistent electrochemistry of the folded protein, with a periodic screw-up here or there, is what makes evolution work.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I have heard in the past that if we were to know enough about all the information of every aspect of our universe we could accurately predict the future.
Oh you probably did hear that. We can still hear that twaddle from time to time. That was pre-QM.
As usual, the determinist view is dependent on context. We can determine where this planet will (most likely) be a year from now ... a hundred thousand years from now. But we can't determine where the electron will be a split-second after leaving our detector. Somewhere in that scale, at about our size, we get to consciously affect the probabilities of some future events and free will, then, seems to become an emergent property of that intellectual ability.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2407 by GDR, posted 05-15-2023 5:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2409 by Phat, posted 05-17-2023 3:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2437 by GDR, posted 06-10-2023 2:14 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2410 of 3694 (910823)
05-17-2023 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2409 by Phat
05-17-2023 3:15 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
You assume that no universal intelligence is the default position.
As with all science, unless there is evidence something may be there, then, there is no reason to entertain its existence. With your level of evidence, which is none, your ghosts' non-existence is the default position, until you can show otherwise, yes.
Essentially you deify science.
As if you would know.
Did science exist before humans described it?
Do you think some school of T-rex's came up with it first?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2409 by Phat, posted 05-17-2023 3:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2411 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 1:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2430 by ICANT, posted 05-30-2023 9:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2412 of 3694 (910830)
05-18-2023 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 2411 by Phat
05-18-2023 1:58 AM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
My point is that the math and physics laws that govern science did in fact exist before humans discovered the formula for such laws.
And the "Piano Man" existed before Billy Joel was born. Joel just "discovered" the relationships between the notes.
If science could exist without humans, why couldn't God?
It couldn't. He doesn't.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2411 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 1:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2416 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 3:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2414 of 3694 (910832)
05-18-2023 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2413 by Tangle
05-18-2023 12:34 PM


Why would anyone choose this stupid Christian faith let alone follow it to their deaths?
There is a higher intelligence involved cleaning some stupid from the gene pool.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2413 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2023 12:34 PM Tangle has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 2418 of 3694 (910837)
05-18-2023 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2416 by Phat
05-18-2023 3:32 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
Scientific law exists and has existed without humans.
Not unless you show me another sentient species in this universe that preceded humanity.
Do relationships exist among the particles and processes in the universe? Yes.
Does the math and the reasoning explaining those relationships exist outside the human mind? No. Give or take an alien or two.
You see a realm where undiscovered laws, medicines, patents and songs reside in unrequited knowledge. That would be a nice place to work but it doesn’t exist. As far as anyone can tell our laws are human conceptions of our observations. They are not the mental regurgitations from an diaphanous cosmic classroom.
Please remember that these human-created models we have are only approximations. In a curious twist on what people think about the laws of physics, our models like general relativity and QFT are such that an actual occurrence can be off by orders of magnitude but still be within 3, 4, 5 decimal places of the model. The universe IS NOT a precise clockwork though it sometimes appears to operate damn close.
The point is, our laws are good tools but they are not the kind of “perfect” someone would expect of a divinely crafted law. They have too much “human” written all over the symbology and reasoning and results.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2416 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 3:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2434 of 3694 (911001)
05-31-2023 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2430 by ICANT
05-30-2023 9:29 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
ICANT, it's been a while. Glad to see you here again.
dwise1 already answered your question but let me extend his comments.
The relationships between matter and energy can be seen in operation. By studying those relationships we have found we can express them in our symbolic language and achieve an excellent APPROXIMAION of what is actually happening in reality.
Yes, the relationships have been working since the beginning of time (or before). But until humans charted the relationship with our math, gravity had no meaning. It just operated more or less the ways our math eventually showed.
What caused the relationships to operate as we approximate in our models is unknown. As usual, religious types will find some kind of god or other to blame. In reality we don't know. No one does. Since we haven't yet seen the other side to T=0 there may well be a natural explanation for all relationships the universe has shown us. This universe may have had no choice but to operate this way from purely natural causes. We don't yet know. Your god is as ignorant as my nature. No one can draw any conclusions from ignorance.
So, yes, the matter/energy operations are universe-old, well prior to the formation of the milky way let alone earth. But the concept of gravity, and our models of gravity as useful tools, are strictly human concepts that didn't arise in this universe until a few hundred years ago (barring an alien or two somewhere that may have developed their own models prior to earth existing).
Welcome back. Don't be such a stranger.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2430 by ICANT, posted 05-30-2023 9:29 PM ICANT has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2493 of 3694 (911288)
06-23-2023 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 2490 by Tangle
06-22-2023 5:26 PM


Re: Curiousity Killed The Cat That Ate The Canaryn A Quote Mine
[...]
Well, that's not nice. You got me hooked. Where's the rest?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2490 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2023 5:26 PM Tangle has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2523 of 3694 (911401)
07-02-2023 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2521 by GDR
07-02-2023 6:10 PM


Re: What is the reality?
I contend that our understanding will continue to evolve until such time as we manage to blow ourselves up, create a virus that dooms us or find novel new ways to end civilization.
So this "still small voice of God" is influencing us into more nightmares? Can it not influence us away from this evil?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2521 by GDR, posted 07-02-2023 6:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2524 by GDR, posted 07-02-2023 7:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024