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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2373 of 3694 (910675)
05-04-2023 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2361 by PaulK
04-29-2023 2:15 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
=PaulK writes:
And to you, that means that cellular life was the first life and couldn’t have evolved from something simpler? Does it?
I have no idea if there was another form of life that evolved into cellular life or not. Do you? It isn't the point anyway.
PaulK writes:
And I will point out that that is just an unsupported opinion that you are desperate to believe. Science cannot disprove it - because it is utterly unfalsifiable. You can always assume some undetectable impulse from an undetectable entity was involved in some undetectable way. But that is hardly a rational basis for belief.
..and it is your belief, as I understand it, that we have evolved from all natural processes without any intelligent first cause or input. That is an unknowable unfalsifiable belief. Hardly a rational basis for belief,
It is no use linking to sites or even reading them if you can't be bothered to understand them. And you obviously do not understand the idea at all.
The usual cop out when you don't have an answer.
PaulK writes:

That is exactly contrary to the idea of selfish genes. Benefit to the self is only relevant insofar as it benefits the copies of our genes we carry. And that can be and is overridden by benefits to other copies. Even the earlier idea of kin selection gets past mere benefits to the self.

It might be more accurately phrased is “Darwinism is about successful replicators and looking out for the “us” when it tends to benefit copies of our genes, directly or indirectly - even to the severe detriment or death of the self. Feedback effects have complicated the picture considerably and any valid analysis of a situation must take those complications into account.”
No problem with that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2361 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2023 2:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2375 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2023 12:46 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2374 of 3694 (910676)
05-04-2023 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2362 by Tangle
04-29-2023 3:18 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
They happen because life is faulty. Mutations occur when DNA replicates, mistakes are made and not always repaired correctly. DNA is very easily damaged by radiation and chemicals. These mistakes and external damage is totally natural und unpredictable.
I'm fine with that but that wasn't my point. Personally I'm inclined to believe that God initiated processes that brought about life with randomness being part of the processes that resulted in life as we know it. Frankly I'm not concerned with the idea life could have evolved physically differently that it has.
It is my belief that the point of initiating the processes which have brought about conscious life with the freedom to make moral decisions is to create life with creatures that can freely choose self sacrificing or Agape love
Tangle writes:
This is what happens when you combine motivated thinking (“I have a belief so I need to made the facts I observe fit that belief”) with a partial understanding of the subject you're talking about.

It's evolution 101 that it requires two independent events

1. A random mutation in the germ line.
2. The selection of a beneficial mutation.

Darwin's finches grew different sized beaks because random mutations that determined beak size many millions of years ago created an advantage when something changed randomly in the environment - such as a drought. Had the random mutation not occurred at the time of the random climate event the advatage it gave would not have been selected for.

It's very much more complicated than that but that's the core concept.
Actually it isn't motivated thinking. I appreciate your explanation as you clearly have a much greater knowledge on the subject, which isn't difficult to achieve.
However it doesn't impact my theistic beliefs, but furter informs me as as to how life formed.
Tangle writes:
I mean really, get a grip, you're not this stupid. The ToE is an accepted fact by the world's scientists, it is NOT a guided or designed process. There isn't the slightest indication of design. No designer requiring a particular outcome would build in a random process that GUARANTEES that any particular outcomes can't be predicted.
As I said above, I believe that the randomness brought about mammals with 5 fingers including opposable thumbs physically. It could have turned out differently. The point IMHO wasn't about how we evolved physically, but was about the nature of the creatures that would evolve, namely creatures that could freely choose self giving love.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2362 by Tangle, posted 04-29-2023 3:18 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2376 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2023 2:38 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2382 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2023 8:06 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2383 of 3694 (910713)
05-08-2023 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2363 by Stile
05-01-2023 8:46 AM


Re: Why not how
Stile writes:
It sounds like you don't understand the difference between "all there is" and "all we've been able to identify so far." One is honest - and the other makes claims that we're unable to know.
That misrepresents my point. I agree that I don't and even can't know that my theistic claims are true. I have presented my rationale for what I BELIEVE to be true.
As a Theist I believe that there is an intelligent first cause for life. As an atheist I would believe that there is nothing but natural mindless processes resulting in life.
Stile writes:
My point is that the answer to "why did the rock roll down the hill?" can be "a quake, a shifting in the earth, a shove etc and on top of that gravity" - which are all green circles.
Well ya, but so what?
Stile writes:
After millions and millions and millions of questions being answered with nothing but green circles.
It is most definitely an evidenced reasoning to hypothesize that the next question will also be answered with another green circle.
Sure when we examine the material world we will only get material answers. That makes no claim on anything beyond material or scientific evidence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2363 by Stile, posted 05-01-2023 8:46 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2384 by Theodoric, posted 05-08-2023 2:11 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2394 by Stile, posted 05-10-2023 9:02 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2385 of 3694 (910716)
05-08-2023 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2366 by AZPaul3
05-01-2023 5:01 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
The only evidence available is overwhelming. There are only natural process at work in this universe. Any contention to the contrary is without evidence or reason and is emotional fantasy.
What was there prior to the processes existing?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2366 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2390 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:43 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2386 of 3694 (910717)
05-08-2023 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2369 by AZPaul3
05-01-2023 5:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe so, but Tangles message you were responding to in your Message 2357 was about mutations. You seem to think such mutations need some reason to occur. The mutation itself is quite random and doesn't need any reason for its possibilities.
I agree that randomness is built into the system but out of that there are probabilities of outcome.
However randomness is certainly a feature of our existence and that the future is open.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2369 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2391 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:56 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2387 of 3694 (910718)
05-08-2023 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2375 by PaulK
05-05-2023 12:46 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
Of course it is rational to reject unevidenced unfalsifiable beliefs. And all you need to do is to produce evidence of guidance to falsify it.
Just as it is to reject the unevidenced unfalsifiable belief that natural processes were initiated by mindlessly and without intelligent thought.
PaulK writes:
Finally, after all these years you admit that you were wrong? That “selfish genes” can - in some cases promote behaviour that is “ to the severe detriment or death of the self” ?
Of course. Just look at spawning salmon. However, as you said it is about our own gene pool and does nothing to explain altruism outside of our gene pool, or for our concern for animals.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2375 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2023 12:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2393 by PaulK, posted 05-09-2023 12:16 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2388 of 3694 (910719)
05-08-2023 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2376 by Tangle
05-05-2023 2:38 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
You don't know you're doing it and you couldn't stop yourself if you did.

You need to stop arguing about evolution because you know practically nothing about it and what you think you know is almost always wrong. Why can't you just believe the stuff you believe without trying to make it fit science's understanding? It can't work, the lesson of history is that Christian beliefs have had to change because of science's discoveries.
I don't pretend to know anything in particular about evolutionary processes. I only know what those evolutionary processes have resulted in. I simply see science being about how the universe and the life in it came to exist, and we keep learning more and more.
Yes, there have been those in the past that have used holy books to argue against scientific findings. Sure there have been those who have treated the Bible as a constitution essentially dictated by God. I suggest that is an abuse of the what is in the Bible. The Bible should not be understood that way.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2376 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2023 2:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2389 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2023 6:14 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2395 of 3694 (910771)
05-12-2023 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2390 by AZPaul3
05-08-2023 6:43 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
What was there prior to the processes existing?
AZPaul3 writes:
Nothing.

Nothing happens without processes. There had to be something going on prior to T=0. We certainly don't know what processes existed but whatever they were they created what we see as our universe today.
So the first process came into existence out of nothing.
AZPaul3 writes:
As for finding out? Quantum gravity, whatever that turns out to be, may be able to pierce that veil. I wouldn't hold my breath, though. Personally, I don't think we will find out. Not before the hammer drops on our species.
Just wondering how you think we'll know then.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2390 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2399 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:34 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2396 of 3694 (910772)
05-12-2023 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2391 by AZPaul3
05-08-2023 6:56 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Exactly. That's what the Schrödinger equation is all about. The wave function of the universe. The probabilities of outcomes.
I have come to believe that God created an exitance with randomness but using high probabilities. That was after reading a book called Freedom All the Way Up by Chris Barrigar.
AZPaul3 writes:
Sounds like a Tibetan monk. I don't speak Tibetan monk. Would you translate, please as in ... say what?
It's not that hard. We know that there is randomness in the world and with that comes free will and an open future.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2391 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2400 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:52 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2397 of 3694 (910773)
05-12-2023 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2393 by PaulK
05-09-2023 12:16 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
And you’re still wrong. Living in a society that offers mutual aid and support will benefit your gene pool - if you do your part. Really, skim reading without understanding, just looking for excuses to prop up your beliefs is not a valid form of study - and shows no concern for the truth.
How does donating to a cause dedicated to the survival of elephants in Africa benefit my gene pool?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2393 by PaulK, posted 05-09-2023 12:16 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2402 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2023 2:31 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2398 of 3694 (910774)
05-12-2023 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2389 by Tangle
05-08-2023 6:14 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I don't pretend to know anything in particular about evolutionary processes.
ou tell us about it all the time!
No I don't. I merely quote basic concepts as written by those who do understand it.
GDR writes:
Yes, there have been those in the past that have used holy books to argue against scientific findings. Sure there have been those who have treated the Bible as a constitution essentially dictated by God. I suggest that is an abuse of the what is in the Bible. The Bible should not be understood that way.
Tangle writes:
But here you are still doing it in you're own way.
I understand the Bible as 66 different books written in context of different times and cultures and by a wide assortment of people.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2389 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2023 6:14 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2403 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2023 3:20 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2404 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2023 4:04 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2405 of 3694 (910801)
05-15-2023 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2399 by AZPaul3
05-12-2023 9:34 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
So the first process came into existence out of nothing.
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe. Maybe not. No one knows.

I'm sure you would like to recommend something. That would be in keeping with your need for heartfelt fantasy to explain deep human ignorance.
Of course no one knows. I simply believe that at the root of everything is intelligence. You're answer is simply to reject what I believe to be the case essentially saying you don't believe anything. Bit of a cop-out im my opinion.
It also seems to me that if you reject an intelligent first cause then the automatic default position is a non-intelligent root.
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe quantum gravity (or something else) will show us what is on the other side of T=0. If so, it may not show "The Beginnings Of Everything," but just another emergent magisterium with its own reality.

If a major consensus of the experts comes out to say "Yes, this is the answer to T=0," then we will know, tentatively (as with all things science). If such strong undeniable evidence is not shown then there will be no consensus. We will not know, yet, and the studies will continue
Once again, science of the gaps You have to come up with subjective scenarios to fit your beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2399 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:34 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2406 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2023 5:32 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2433 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2023 1:21 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2407 of 3694 (910804)
05-15-2023 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2400 by AZPaul3
05-12-2023 9:52 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul32 writes:
How does random create/equate to free will? What do you mean by an 'open' future? What's the alternative?
We know that randomness is a feature of our evolution. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have heard in the past that if we were to know enough about all the information of every aspect of our universe we could accurately predict the future.
I would venture to say that the future is yet to be determined and can be predicted, but that it is unknowable, regardless of how much information we have.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2400 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2408 by AZPaul3, posted 05-15-2023 11:05 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2419 of 3694 (910960)
05-29-2023 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2402 by PaulK
05-13-2023 2:31 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
For someone who claims to have read a lot about this, you still seem unable to understand basic points. First it is not necessary that the basic impulses guarantee benefit even in the environment where they evolved. Second, behaviour is built up around those impulses. - there are cultural factors too. Third, the environment of the modern world is sufficiently different to the distant past so mismatches are expected. Fourth there are complications.

One important thing to note is that the gift of money usually has a negligible cost to the giver. Which is rather a relevant fact. Or to put it another way as “sacrificial love” goes it isn’t much of a sacrifice.

So there are in fact a number of possible explanations. Just off the top of my head I can see four issues - which are not exclusive.

First, the charity might be seen as “us” and therefore there is an impulse to assist them in their goals.

Second, elephants might be considered as us” - not a huge reach when pets can reach that status.

Third, there are impulses to approve of and reward “good” behaviour.so if helping elephants is seen as “good” then doing it may well ave benefits.

Fourth, as a consequence of the third there are impulses to act in ways considered “good” even if there is no benefit.
All of those points do not answer the issue of how they promote ourselves or our gene pool. I'm not denying that altruism and empathy evolve in a culture. However, they evolve in contradiction to Darwinian principles of survival of the fittest or even survival of the gene pool.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2402 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2023 2:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2432 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2023 12:19 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2420 of 3694 (910961)
05-29-2023 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2403 by Tangle
05-13-2023 3:20 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
There's absolutely no reason why your 'understanding' is the correct one - it's purely random chance that you were born into a part of Western culture that uses a particular form of Christian book at this time and interprets it in a particular way. 500 years ago it would have been 'understood' in a way you wouldn't recognise and in 500 years time it will be different again. It's a human invention that changes as human culture developes. It's US that change, not your 'understanding' or the meaning of what was written by unknown human authors thousands of years ago by ignorant and superstitious desert tribes.
I have no doubt that my understanding of the Bible is flawed in one way or another. I simply don't know on which way my views are flawed. I frankly don't worship my way of understanding the Bible. Yes, I do use the Bible as a way to help me understand the nature of God and his desires for humanity primarily through the life of the man Jesus.
Ultimately it is about faith and my belief that there is a God who cares for us, has an ultimate plan for creation and desires that we our foundation for how we live our lives is based on the so called "Golden Rule"
I accept that the Bible is written by fallible human beings and not always well intentioned ones as we can see in the promotion of genocide and public stoning. So yes, every Christian has things that they will disagree on and as our world evolves so will our beliefs. In the last 70 years or so there has been a great deal more emphasis based on the cultures and times in which the Biblical texts were written and as a result much of our theological thinking is evolving.
As far as my believing in the God I desire goes, the question is why is that the case. Is it because I concocted my ideal of how I want God to be or is it because that "still small voice of God" has influenced me to desire that nature for God?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2403 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2023 3:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2423 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2023 2:34 PM GDR has replied

  
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