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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: Maybe so, but Tangles message you were responding to in your Message 2357 was about mutations. You seem to think such mutations need some reason to occur. The mutation itself is quite random and doesn't need any reason for its possibilities. Here was my reply to Tangle:
quote: I'm not arguing against randomness. The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place. You guys consistently argue the point that the processes are the reason the processes exist completely ignoring my point.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: If that is the case then there is at least as much intransigence on the other side of the table. When you insist the evidence isn't there and continue to seek out fanciful reasoning to explain what is already known, that is intransigence. And, yes, science knows intransigence well because religionists, like yourself, exhibit it so frequently.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
=PaulK writes:
I have no idea if there was another form of life that evolved into cellular life or not. Do you? It isn't the point anyway.
And to you, that means that cellular life was the first life and couldn’t have evolved from something simpler? Does it? PaulK writes: And I will point out that that is just an unsupported opinion that you are desperate to believe. Science cannot disprove it - because it is utterly unfalsifiable. You can always assume some undetectable impulse from an undetectable entity was involved in some undetectable way. But that is hardly a rational basis for belief. ..and it is your belief, as I understand it, that we have evolved from all natural processes without any intelligent first cause or input. That is an unknowable unfalsifiable belief. Hardly a rational basis for belief,
It is no use linking to sites or even reading them if you can't be bothered to understand them. And you obviously do not understand the idea at all.
The usual cop out when you don't have an answer.
PaulK writes:
No problem with that. That is exactly contrary to the idea of selfish genes. Benefit to the self is only relevant insofar as it benefits the copies of our genes we carry. And that can be and is overridden by benefits to other copies. Even the earlier idea of kin selection gets past mere benefits to the self. It might be more accurately phrased is “Darwinism is about successful replicators and looking out for the “us” when it tends to benefit copies of our genes, directly or indirectly - even to the severe detriment or death of the self. Feedback effects have complicated the picture considerably and any valid analysis of a situation must take those complications into account.” He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: They happen because life is faulty. Mutations occur when DNA replicates, mistakes are made and not always repaired correctly. DNA is very easily damaged by radiation and chemicals. These mistakes and external damage is totally natural und unpredictable. I'm fine with that but that wasn't my point. Personally I'm inclined to believe that God initiated processes that brought about life with randomness being part of the processes that resulted in life as we know it. Frankly I'm not concerned with the idea life could have evolved physically differently that it has. It is my belief that the point of initiating the processes which have brought about conscious life with the freedom to make moral decisions is to create life with creatures that can freely choose self sacrificing or Agape love Tangle writes: This is what happens when you combine motivated thinking (“I have a belief so I need to made the facts I observe fit that belief”) with a partial understanding of the subject you're talking about. It's evolution 101 that it requires two independent events 1. A random mutation in the germ line. 2. The selection of a beneficial mutation. Darwin's finches grew different sized beaks because random mutations that determined beak size many millions of years ago created an advantage when something changed randomly in the environment - such as a drought. Had the random mutation not occurred at the time of the random climate event the advatage it gave would not have been selected for. It's very much more complicated than that but that's the core concept. Actually it isn't motivated thinking. I appreciate your explanation as you clearly have a much greater knowledge on the subject, which isn't difficult to achieve. However it doesn't impact my theistic beliefs, but furter informs me as as to how life formed. Tangle writes: I mean really, get a grip, you're not this stupid. The ToE is an accepted fact by the world's scientists, it is NOT a guided or designed process. There isn't the slightest indication of design. No designer requiring a particular outcome would build in a random process that GUARANTEES that any particular outcomes can't be predicted.
As I said above, I believe that the randomness brought about mammals with 5 fingers including opposable thumbs physically. It could have turned out differently. The point IMHO wasn't about how we evolved physically, but was about the nature of the creatures that would evolve, namely creatures that could freely choose self giving love.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Actually it was the point. It started when you said:
Are you then saying that the first individual cells were instantly created without any need for an evolutionary process? that the first individual cells were instantly created without any need for an evolutionary process?
. Message 2325 Why shouldn’t I point out that I am not saying any such thing, nor are the scientists who actually work on the origin of life? Really I don’t see any point in such an ignorant strawman.
quote: Of course it is rational to reject unevidenced unfalsifiable beliefs. And all you need to do is to produce evidence of guidance to falsify it.
quote: Ignoring the answers I’ve already given doesn’t prove that they don’t exist (e.g the final part of Message 2333 shows that even the material you quoted from Wikipedia did not agree with you. All you did is point to a website - and one that’s worse than the Wikipedia page you’d already cited and refused to understand (and that was shown more than 10 years ago). I’ve explained that the whole idea that the “selfish gene” is all about benefit to the self is wrong, over and over again. To say that I “have no answer” is just to deny that fact,
quote: Finally, after all these years you admit that you were wrong? That “selfish genes” can - in some cases promote behaviour that is “ to the severe detriment or death of the self” ?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes:
Personally I'm inclined to believe that God initiated processes…It is my belief that the point of initiating the processes… I believe that the randomness brought about mammals… And then
quote: You don't know you're doing it and you couldn't stop yourself if you did. You need to stop arguing about evolution because you know practically nothing about it and what you think you know is almost always wrong. Why can't you just believe the stuff you believe without trying to make it fit science's understanding? It can't work, the lesson of history is that Christian beliefs have had to change because of science's discoveries.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8553 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
AZPaul3 writes: If that is the case then there is at least as much intransigence on the other side of the table. When you insist the evidence isn't there and continue to seek out fanciful reasoning to explain what is already known, that is intransigence. And, yes, science knows intransigence well because religionists, like yourself, exhibit it so frequently. What evidence from your side do I ignore? None. You have none. From there all your reasoning is incredulous emotional fantasy.
The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place. You reach for supernatural "what if" explanations for things we already have answers for. Then you insist on an infinite regression of "why is it that way" questions until logic and reason are exhausted. There, then, you claim unevidenced, lies the divine cosmic intelligence you so desperately want there to be. It still isn't ... not that you or anyone else in all of humanity can show. That is a big hole in your delusion that you cannot fill. You can only insist against all reality. Intransigence. And only on the one side, GDR. The other side has actual evidence of the reality. Insisting on reality is not intransigence. It is sanity.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8553 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
I'm not arguing against randomness. The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place. QFT. Why QFT? Schrödinger. Why Schrödinger. Heisenberg. Why Heisenberg? Pauli We can go on and on with this "why" bs but you will not arrive at your god's doorstep.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: So who on “the other side of the table” has persisted in a misrepresentation for more than ten years after it was pointed out? (Pointed out here Message 16, for instance)
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
For ten years GDR has been rinse, wash, repeat. He is using the same non-arguments he did on day one. He will disappear for a while then come back and say the same thing with different word order and claim he has new, super-sized argument. Rinse, wash, repeat.
Except next time there will be even fewer people he will respond to. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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Only 10 years? Try 18. The Whys of Evolution (well, a few weeks short, but close enough)
Edited by PaulK, .
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: I believe that the randomness brought about mammals with 5 fingers including opposable thumbs physically. As you're interested in why? and it's the day that COVID was declared no longer a global emergency, why did this god of yours create a virus that just killed 20 million of us and harmed many more? Why choose this particular evil mechanism - where everything has to kill everything else just to survive - for his creation?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes:
That misrepresents my point. I agree that I don't and even can't know that my theistic claims are true. I have presented my rationale for what I BELIEVE to be true. It sounds like you don't understand the difference between "all there is" and "all we've been able to identify so far." One is honest - and the other makes claims that we're unable to know. As a Theist I believe that there is an intelligent first cause for life. As an atheist I would believe that there is nothing but natural mindless processes resulting in life.
Stile writes:
Well ya, but so what?
My point is that the answer to "why did the rock roll down the hill?" can be "a quake, a shifting in the earth, a shove etc and on top of that gravity" - which are all green circles. Stile writes: After millions and millions and millions of questions being answered with nothing but green circles.It is most definitely an evidenced reasoning to hypothesize that the next question will also be answered with another green circle. Sure when we examine the material world we will only get material answers. That makes no claim on anything beyond material or scientific evidence.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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So magic.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes: The only evidence available is overwhelming. There are only natural process at work in this universe. Any contention to the contrary is without evidence or reason and is emotional fantasy. What was there prior to the processes existing?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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