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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2339 of 3694 (910557)
04-26-2023 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2331 by PaulK
04-21-2023 5:19 PM


Re: Why not how
GDR writes:
The questions like why is there something instead of nothing and why does life exist at all is something that science can't answer.
PaulK writes:
I disagree on the second, but I really want to talk about the first.
Firstly if science helps can you tell me "why", not "how" the universe exists.
PaulK writes:
It seems obvious that “why is there something rather than nothing” is no help to you at all. You have no better answer than any of us.

Indeed, I put considerable thought into it on a thread here. Yet I haven’t seen you discuss it in a similar way. So I can’t even say that you have as good an answer as I do.

So why bring it up? Can you really offer an explanation of how it helps you - that doesn’t rely on a double standard?
I don't necessarily thinks it helps me, but it is simply that it is unanswerable. Assuming BB theory is somewhat accurate then the question arises as to what it was that precipitated that, and further if it can be explained by some cosmic cataclysmic event, then we ask what it was that precipitated that.
My own unevidenced view is simply that it always existed in one form or another and now it is is simply the way we perceive it, which is not an argument for either of our positions, but simply a question that, at least so far, is far beyond our ability to come to any firm conclusion.
The reason behind the existence of life, from intelligence or mindlessness is a different question.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2331 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2023 5:19 PM PaulK has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2340 of 3694 (910558)
04-26-2023 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2333 by PaulK
04-22-2023 1:39 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
​That gets into how “life” is defined, but possibly an RNA strand capable of replicating in its environment. Possibly a complex of RNA strands rather than one. Or maybe not even RNA but something simpler.
That is as speculative as any answer. Even if you are right the question remains as to what precipitated that. Without knowing how it came about I contend it is more reasonable to conclude that there was a cosmic intelligence responsible than that it came about from blind mindless chance, and of course it doesn't even begin to answer the question of why there was any RNA at all.
PaulK writes:
is to show that the “selfishness” serves the “interests” of the genes - not the people they reside in. Obviously that is different from the people being selfish - but you don’t see that and refuse to see it. Because you don’t care about the truth - as you’ve just demonstrated again.
OK, then how does it explain how it is that helping people on the other side of the planet from a completely different gene pool serves the interest of the genes when my gene pool is better served by destroying or enslaving them and having access to their resources for my own gene pool. How does it serve my genes to put time and money into bettering the lives of animals, which I agree is kinda hypocritical as I eat them. (I do at least try and buy etheical meat> )

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2333 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2023 1:39 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2342 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2023 12:34 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2341 of 3694 (910559)
04-26-2023 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2337 by Tangle
04-26-2023 4:36 PM


Re: Why not how
Tangle writes:
Why do you think that there needs to be a why?
Do you believe that life evolved by blind chance one way or another and if not then what is your belief about why life exists at all?
Sure, we can get along quite nicely without ever thinking about that and I assume that the vast majority do,

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2337 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2023 4:36 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2345 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:36 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2348 of 3694 (910603)
04-28-2023 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2342 by PaulK
04-27-2023 12:34 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
It is actually less speculative than the idea that the first life was cellular. Obviously you haven’t studied this field.
I have no idea as to whether the first life was cellular or not. The point is that whatever was first cellular or otherwise required something to initiate it. Was it from blind chance or was from intelligence?
GDR writes:
Without knowing how it came about I contend it is more reasonable to conclude that there was a cosmic intelligence responsible than that it came about from blind mindless chance, and of course it doesn't even begin to answer the question of why there was any RNA at all.
PaulK writes:
Oh, so you think that an uninformed opinion is better than all the work that science has done on this problem. You have no evidence for your contention worth speaking of.
How about you outline to me what science has discovered about why, not how, life came into existence.
Here is the best explanation I have been able to find. The cell: A Molecular Approach
Here is one quote from that article.
quote:
The First Cell
It appears that life first emerged at least 3.8 billion years ago, approximately 750 million years after Earth was formed (Figure 1.1). How life originated and how the first cell came into being are matters of speculation, since these events cannot be reproduced in the laboratory. Nonetheless, several types of experiments provide important evidence bearing on some steps of the process.
PaulK writes:
Let’s note that this concedes a good deal of grounds. But my answer is that it doesn’t - but it is the product of impulses that do, and did in humanity’s earlier evolution. After all that ability to do that much is a very recent thing on that timescale.

To put it simply, there is in human psychology a basic division between “us” and “them” - and impulses to help those considered “us”. That categorisation is not dictated by evolution (there was no need) so people who accept that “us” is a very wide group can be moved to go and help others who live very distantly,
That is speculation without scientific evidence, which doesn't mean that you're wrong. However Darwinism is again about survival of the fittest and looking out for the us when it benefits the self. So, if you're correct you have to be looking at something beyound Darwinian evolution.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2342 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2023 12:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2350 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2023 5:09 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2349 of 3694 (910604)
04-28-2023 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2343 by Tangle
04-27-2023 2:16 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Let’s note that this concedes a good deal of grounds. But my answer is that it doesn’t - but it is the product of impulses that do, and did in humanity’s earlier evolution. After all that ability to do that much is a very recent thing on that timescale.

To put it simply, there is in human psychology a basic division between “us” and “them” - and impulses to help those considered “us”. That categorisation is not dictated by evolution (there was no need) so people who accept that “us” is a very wide group can be moved to go and help others who live very distantly,
Can't argue with that.
Tangle writes:
That's not what I believe. How many times? We KNOW that all life on earth - including H.sapiens - evolved by a process of descent with modification. This is a fact, not a belief.
I agree, but how do you know whether that process is by design or by chance.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2343 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:16 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2354 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2023 7:04 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2355 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2023 7:05 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2351 of 3694 (910606)
04-28-2023 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2344 by Tangle
04-27-2023 2:28 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Firstly I have never seen anything Darwinian that goes beyond the idea of survival of the fittest. I see nothing in there that suggests an evolutionary process that would lead us to overcome our basic instincts for our own survival and well being. Certainly co-operation can fit into that but not empathy and more particularly altruism.
Tangle writes:
Then you are at odds with science. You haven't seen anything because you ignore or reject what is shown to you.
Darwin didn't originate but used the term "survival of the fittest". Are you saying that he was wrong? You have shown by observation that empathy and altruism evolved over time. What precipitated that process?
Tangle writes:
You believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. It's purely made up.
That's true if only scientific evidence is taken into account. Not all human reasoning is science based.
Tangle writes:
If your god influences us he's doing it in a way that looks exactly like he isn't.
I agree. However all of what you say is consistent with my belief that humans have experience over the years, (as can be seen in the narrative that can be seen in the Bible), a progressive understanding of the nature of God, and of His purpose for our lives. However, I agree that it isn't directly discernible from it happening in a way that is consistent with your belief, We do disagree on which POV is more rational.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2344 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:28 AM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2352 of 3694 (910607)
04-28-2023 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2345 by Tangle
04-27-2023 2:36 AM


Re: Why not how
Tangle writes:
My answer to how life came about here on earth is that I don't know. But I asked you why you think there needs to be a why? This is not an answer.
I don't know either. However, if there is an intelligent first cause that is responsible for life then I would suggest that anyone with human curiosity would like to know what we can discern about that intelligence. It is that same human curiosity that drives scientific research.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2345 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:36 AM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2353 of 3694 (910608)
04-28-2023 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2347 by Stile
04-27-2023 9:17 AM


Re: Why not how
Stile writes:
Scientific evidence answers the exact same questions.
You, specifically "you - GDR," have a subjective response where you don't like those answers and "don't accept" them.

You not accepting what the evidence is showing us is not the same thing as the evidence not answering the question.
I'm not at all sure what answers, that are physically evidenced that I don't accept. I agree that my belief that we exist because of an intelligent first cause is subjective, but so is the belief that we exist strictly from processes that have only a mindless first cause. I also agree that all you will get out of the bag are your green circles which of course eliminates any philosophical thought or evidence.
Stile writes:
No, of course it wouldn't.
However, we can look at the rest of the world and see that the answer to "why does evolution occur at all?" is: Because this is the universe we find ourselves in and when replicators replicate - evolution occurs.

Just like "why do rocks roll downhill?"
Because this is the universe we find ourselves in and when rocks are dropped they roll downhill.

All you're left with is "why is this the universe we find ourselves in?"

And the answer is: We don't know. Perhaps it has to be this way. Perhaps we'll never find out. But all the evidence shows us that the answer is NOT "because God made it this way." Because the evidence shows us that God does not exist in order to do anything at all.
The rock rolls down the hill as a result of an exterior cause. It might be a quake, a shifting in the earth, a shove etc and on top of that gravity. What's your point?
However, we all come to our own unevidenced belief as to whether we exist from mindless processes or from processes set in motion by an intelligence. I believe in the latter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2347 by Stile, posted 04-27-2023 9:17 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2363 by Stile, posted 05-01-2023 8:46 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2356 of 3694 (910614)
04-28-2023 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2350 by PaulK
04-28-2023 5:09 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
Then maybe you shouldn’t use the idea that it was cellular in your arguments.
Why not? So what if there were microbes that pre-date cellular life? Our lives are based on cellular life.
PaulK writes:
There is no plausible explanation based on intelligence as the cause. No known intelligence that could have caused it. No evidence that an intelligence is needed. No plausible motive for the presumed intelligence to create life in that way.
I continue to maintain that sentient life with an awareness of right and wrong is far more plausible to have emanated from an intelligent source than a mindless source. Of course that isn't scientific but it goes beyond what science can examine or test, regardless of how many processes it is able to research.
PaulK writes:
Oh, it is not without evidence. The existence of tribalism is a fact. That humans can consider distant people who they have never met to be part of “us” is a fact. The benefits from members of a group helping each other is a fact.
Tribalism is a fact and how often do we see a tribe fighting to gain an advantage over another tribe. Tribalism is the worst example that you could have come up with to explain altruism. If one tribe wants to fight against the tribe next door then I wonder how you can extrapolate that into an explanation of why people want to help a far distant tribe.
PaulK writes:
After more than ten years and you still don’t understood the concept of the “selfish gene”. You’re wrong. And wilfully wrong. If you cared about the truth you would have set yourself right by now - not that you had any excuse for getting it so wrong in the first place.
Here is the best site that I could find on the selfish gene. I admit it has been a number of years since I read the book. Selfish Gene theory and altruism
Now explain to me what I'm getting wrong.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2350 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2023 5:09 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2360 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2023 9:00 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2361 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2023 2:15 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2357 of 3694 (910615)
04-28-2023 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2354 by Tangle
04-28-2023 7:04 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Because we know the mechanism! Mutations are chance occurrences
Sure, but that doesn't explain why the possibility of those chance occurrences exist at all. Also, I'm not sure that I would even categorize them by chance. Darwin's finches beaks evolved due to differing physical circumstances. As I say, evolution is an incredible process that has the earmarks of design all over it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2354 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2023 7:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2358 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-28-2023 7:57 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2359 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2023 8:26 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2362 by Tangle, posted 04-29-2023 3:18 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2364 of 3694 (910641)
05-01-2023 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2355 by AZPaul3
04-28-2023 7:05 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Design or natural processes? Majik or chemistry?

We have reason to hypothesize that the ‘design’ argument leaves different marks on the universe then natural processes. The interactions of particles and energy gradients is very well understood. We can see quite deep into the workings, the ebb and flow of energy, in this universe. There does not appear to be anything but what is naturally expected on both the largest and smallest cosmic scales.

If there were a designer it’s work is indistinguishable from nature. Spinoza?

But you go beyond just ‘designer’. You want to go to gods. You want to say the very operations of nature, the operations we have modeled, the equations we consider ‘laws of nature’ are god determined, god driven and so intervening and mucking about and covering it up is child’s (god’s) play.

I still can’t see where that differs any from the natural we already know. This universe appears just as it coulda/shoulda/woulda if all there is, is nature. There is no reason, no need, to suppose such a god thing. The god meme has no reason to exist. It doesn’t do anything.

You want to see spooky consciously deliberate actions and influences in its workings. But nature appears to be only capable of being nature and doing natural things. It may be spooky seen in ignorance but nature doesn’t do consciously deliberate spooky things.
I largely agree with that. However, that assumes that we can't form conclusions from anything other than scientific evidence. John Polkinghorne was a world leading acclaimed physicist and a committed Christian. Francis Collins a world leading and acclaimed biologist is also a Christian. He called DNA the language of God, That doesn't prove anything except that theism, and even Christianity, isn't anywhere close to solely the domain of the intellectually challenged.
You present theories of how we formed consciousness, morality, a sense of beauty and a desire to explore the world and even the universe. In my view that all of this could be the result of nothing but mindless processes on their own, without at the very least an intelligent initiator is nuts. It is simple as that and that it seems is where we stand.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2355 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2023 7:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2365 by PaulK, posted 05-01-2023 4:54 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2366 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:01 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2367 of 3694 (910644)
05-01-2023 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2359 by AZPaul3
04-28-2023 8:26 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Are you really asking 'why' there is a 'possibility' of an electron potential spike that breaks a molecular bond when it gets hit by a stray gamma-ray? Are you asking 'why' the gamma-ray has the 'possibility' for such energy to zap the electron so hard as to break the bond in a DNA strand? Are you asking 'why' the gamma-ray has a 'possibility' it was there in that place at that time to cause a mutation?
I am talking about the formation of conscious life.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2359 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2023 8:26 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2369 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:28 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2368 of 3694 (910645)
05-01-2023 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2360 by AZPaul3
04-28-2023 9:00 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
[qs-AZPaul3]We call that intransigence. And you’re wrong, science knows it well.[/qs]
..and so you claim. I disagree.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2360 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2023 9:00 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2370 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:41 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2371 of 3694 (910673)
05-04-2023 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2369 by AZPaul3
05-01-2023 5:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe so, but Tangles message you were responding to in your Message 2357 was about mutations. You seem to think such mutations need some reason to occur. The mutation itself is quite random and doesn't need any reason for its possibilities.
Here was my reply to Tangle:
quote:
Sure, but that doesn't explain why the possibility of those chance occurrences exist at all. Also, I'm not sure that I would even categorize them by chance. Darwin's finches beaks evolved due to differing physical circumstances. As I say, evolution is an incredible process that has the earmarks of design all over it.
I'm not arguing against randomness. The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place. You guys consistently argue the point that the processes are the reason the processes exist completely ignoring my point.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2369 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2378 by AZPaul3, posted 05-05-2023 11:08 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2372 of 3694 (910674)
05-04-2023 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2370 by AZPaul3
05-01-2023 5:41 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
When you insist the evidence isn't there and continue to seek out fanciful reasoning to explain what is already known, that is intransigence. And, yes, science knows intransigence well because religionists, like yourself, exhibit it so frequently.
If that is the case then there is at least as much intransigence on the other side of the table.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2370 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2377 by AZPaul3, posted 05-05-2023 10:25 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 2379 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2023 12:59 PM GDR has not replied

  
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