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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 2321 of 3694 (910074)
04-16-2023 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2319 by GDR
04-15-2023 7:40 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Darwin wrote that "I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious views of anyone.”, and of course it shouldn't as his theory only concerned of how physical life as we know it came to be.
Whether the ToE should or shouldn't shock the religious views of people is rather moot as we know that it did and you can see here that it still does.
In fact, prior to Darwin, the common belief was that the species were immutable. They were put on earth by god exactly the way we see them today. You would have believed that and you would have fought against it just like you're fighting against the idea that empathy could have evolved. It shocked because a deep seated belief was overturned. The religious world - which was pretty much all of it pre-Darwin - was deeply shocked by the implications of Darwin's discovery.
And a large proportion of religious ignoramuses in the USA still refuse to accept facts.
quote:
… according to the Pew Research Center, 62 percent of adults in the United States accept human evolution while 34 percent of adults believe that humans have always existed in their present form.
In other words evolution is a strictly physical process, and if anyone wants to make the point that empathy and altruism evolved it requires a completely different process.
Of course evolution is a strictly physical process, animals and plants are strictly physical! Absolutely nothing non-physical exists in our bodies, everything is physical. Even our thoughts and emotions like love, hate, anger, jealousy and yes, empathy are physical states. We know this because we can see the parts of the brain that are working when those emotions are active.
Quit trying to find the supernatural in stuff that is purely natural, it makes you look silly. Believe in your god by all means but don't impose your own personal fantasies on him. He doesn't work the way you want him to work.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2319 by GDR, posted 04-15-2023 7:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2328 by GDR, posted 04-20-2023 8:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 2327 of 3694 (910256)
04-20-2023 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2324 by GDR
04-19-2023 6:22 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
That's fine, but there is a big difference between figuring out what works and what is morally right. Genocide can work. Look at how well slavery worked for years until people finally said this is wrong.
I was going to make the same argument. What we see as right and wrong changes over time. It's developmental. We are capable of both good and bad. Those that murder others know that what they do is wrong, they always have because it's hardwired into us like all our base emotions are. But we're conscious, thinking beings that are able to override those emotions if we see advantage in it and often do it anyway.
When we send funds into some foreign country to help those who are destitute we aren't doing it because it works. We keep hearing about the world being over-populated so we would be better off just to let them die off and reducing the competition for resources. That behaviour goes against evolution forces that involve personal well being and survival.
GDR, we are far more complicated machines than this. We have complex drives and emotional reactions to situations. We do irrational things all the time for seemingly rational reasons. Russians are killing Ukrainians now, not because they want to but because some power crazed lunatic - a Christian btw - is telling them they must. They know it's wrong but do it anyway.
Evolution does not power our actions, you are ascribing simplistic ideas to a complicated organism that has developed far beyond those primitive mechanisms. We have evolved a conscious brain and developed a sophisticated society and set of behaviours that allow us to operate beyond pure instinct.
But we still have those primitive instincts imbedded in us - we know instinctively what is right and wrong but society and its institutions promote or prohibit those instincts. Societies are developmental, it's not at all certain that our better instincts will overcome our worse ones and in some parts of the world we can see they aren't.
God is not involved in any of this, if the kind of god you believe in is involved, he's a pathetic one, unable to achieve whatever you think he is trying to do. I don't know how you can look at the world and believe what you believe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2324 by GDR, posted 04-19-2023 6:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2336 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 4:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 2329 of 3694 (910313)
04-21-2023 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2328 by GDR
04-20-2023 8:03 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I would suggest that the number of ignoramuses that can't accept the facts of evolution is shrinking rapidly. However there are still flat earthers.
It would be more useful if you actually gave me some facts about these numbers instead of what you 'would suggest'. Then instead of just suggesting something that may not be true, we'd be having a conversation about what IS true.
I might get time to research historical information later, but I would expect the proportion of non-believers in the ToE to have been declining slowly over the last 100 years or so. But it may have slowed radically over the last 50 as conservative fundamentalists have been promoting their lies heavily. That's just my thoughts without knowing the facts. The USA is unique in the modern world in still believing in stupid religious-based ideas.
A 2019 Gallup creationism survey found that 40% of adults in the United States inclined to the belief that "God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years" when asked for their beliefs regarding the origin and development of human beings.
Actually I'm not fighting against anything. I am simply going with what I believe to be true.
You're not fighting anything, that's true; just like those creationists above you're just impervious to information that contradicts your beliefs. You do indeed 'simply go with what you believe to be true.' Which is what believers have done for centuries and have always been proven wrong.

You don't even think you're doing it. You smile at the ignoramuses that think people were put on the planet 10,000 years ago fully formed, but don't realise you do the same in your own way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2328 by GDR, posted 04-20-2023 8:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2338 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 6:38 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2337 of 3694 (910550)
04-26-2023 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2335 by GDR
04-26-2023 4:08 PM


Re: Why not how
GDR writes:
I'm repeating myself but we can look scientifically at evolutionary theory but that won't tell you why evolution exists in the first place even if science is able to solve the riddle of abiogenesis.
Why do you think that there needs to be a why?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2335 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 4:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2341 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 7:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2343 of 3694 (910565)
04-27-2023 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2338 by GDR
04-26-2023 6:38 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Here is an article from USA Today done in 2017. Creationism support is at a new low
The opinion piece in USA Today quotes a Gallup poll from 2017 saying that those accepting evolution is 38%. I gave you the same Gallup poll from 2019 which had it at 40%. Being nice to you, I'd say that was inside the error bars.
The point is, that a ridiculously high proportion of the population of the USA believe something truly stupid because religious organisations tell them too.
and as you believe that the best explanation is that everything evolved simply by mindless, fortuitous chance.
That's not what I believe. How many times? We KNOW that all life on earth - including H.sapiens - evolved by a process of descent with modification. This is a fact, not a belief.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2338 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 6:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2349 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 4:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2344 of 3694 (910566)
04-27-2023 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2336 by GDR
04-26-2023 4:36 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Firstly I have never seen anything Darwinian that goes beyond the idea of survival of the fittest. I see nothing in there that suggests an evolutionary process that would lead us to overcome our basic instincts for our own survival and well being. Certainly co-operation can fit into that but not empathy and more particularly altruism.
Then you are at odds with science. You haven't seen anything because you ignore or reject what is shown to you.
Secondly, I don't believe in a god who directly controls the world. Yes, I believe God influences human and quite possibly even all conscious thought, although easily ignored, but that is a very different thing.
You believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. It's purely made up. If your god influences us he's doing it in a way that looks exactly like he isn't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2336 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 4:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2346 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2023 3:30 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 2351 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 5:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2345 of 3694 (910568)
04-27-2023 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2341 by GDR
04-26-2023 7:21 PM


Re: Why not how
GDR writes:
Do you believe that life evolved by blind chance one way or another and if not then what is your belief about why life exists at all?

Sure, we can get along quite nicely without ever thinking about that and I assume that the vast majority do,
My answer to how life came about here on earth is that I don't know. But I asked you why you think there needs to be a why? This is not an answer.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2341 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 7:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2352 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 5:17 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2354 of 3694 (910611)
04-28-2023 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2349 by GDR
04-28-2023 4:55 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I agree, but how do you know whether that process is by design or by chance.
Because we know the mechanism! Mutations are chance occurrences

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2349 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 4:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2357 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 7:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2362 of 3694 (910621)
04-29-2023 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2357 by GDR
04-28-2023 7:24 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Sure, but that doesn't explain why the possibility of those chance occurrences exist at all.
They happen because life is faulty. Mutations occur when DNA replicates, mistakes are made and not always repaired correctly. DNA is very easily damaged by radiation and chemicals. These mistakes and external damage is totally natural und unpredictable.
Also, I'm not sure that I would even categorize them by chance. Darwin's finches beaks evolved due to differing physical circumstances.
This is what happens when you combine motivated thinking (“I have a belief so I need to made the facts I observe fit that belief”) with a partial understanding of the subject you're talking about.
It's evolution 101 that it requires two independent events
1. A random mutation in the germ line.
2. The selection of a beneficial mutation.
Darwin's finches grew different sized beaks because random mutations that determined beak size many millions of years ago created an advantage when something changed randomly in the environment - such as a drought. Had the random mutation not occurred at the time of the random climate event the advatage it gave would not have been selected for.
It's very much more complicated than that but that's the core concept.
I say, evolution is an incredible process that has the earmarks of design all over it.
And I say that that is a fantastic example of motivated thinking by a religious person that has no formal training in what he's commenting on.
I mean really, get a grip, you're not this stupid. The ToE is an accepted fact by the world's scientists, it is NOT a guided or designed process. There isn't the slightest indication of design. No designer requiring a particular outcome would build in a random process that GUARANTEES that any particular outcomes can't be predicted.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2357 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 7:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2374 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 7:47 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 2376 of 3694 (910681)
05-05-2023 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2374 by GDR
05-04-2023 7:47 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Personally I'm inclined to believe that God initiated processes…
It is my belief that the point of initiating the processes…
I believe that the randomness brought about mammals…
And then
quote:
Actually it isn't motivated thinking.
You don't know you're doing it and you couldn't stop yourself if you did.
You need to stop arguing about evolution because you know practically nothing about it and what you think you know is almost always wrong. Why can't you just believe the stuff you believe without trying to make it fit science's understanding? It can't work, the lesson of history is that Christian beliefs have had to change because of science's discoveries.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2374 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 7:47 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2388 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2382 of 3694 (910698)
05-06-2023 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 2374 by GDR
05-04-2023 7:47 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I believe that the randomness brought about mammals with 5 fingers including opposable thumbs physically.
As you're interested in why? and it's the day that COVID was declared no longer a global emergency, why did this god of yours create a virus that just killed 20 million of us and harmed many more? Why choose this particular evil mechanism - where everything has to kill everything else just to survive - for his creation?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2374 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 7:47 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2389 of 3694 (910721)
05-08-2023 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2388 by GDR
05-08-2023 5:55 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I don't pretend to know anything in particular about evolutionary processes.
You tell us about it all the time!
Yes, there have been those in the past that have used holy books to argue against scientific findings. Sure there have been those who have treated the Bible as a constitution essentially dictated by God. I suggest that is an abuse of the what is in the Bible. The Bible should not be understood that way.
But here you are still doing it in you're own way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2388 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2398 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2403 of 3694 (910779)
05-13-2023 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2398 by GDR
05-12-2023 7:52 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I understand the Bible as 66 different books written in context of different times and cultures and by a wide assortment of people.
The Protestant bible has 66 books, but
quote:
The Ethiopian Bible, which is perhaps the oldest Christian Bible, includes somewhere between 81 to 84 books, depending on different factors. The Roman Catholic Bible has 73 books, and the Greek Orthodox Bible—without an official number—is somewhat larger, with somewhere between 75 and 79 books. The Syriac Bible also has quite a wide range of different books. And the Protestant Bible (which in some ways American culture prioritizes) has 66 books—39 of an ‘Old Testament,’ and 27 of a ‘New Testament.’ If one would total all of the books in these different collections, there would be a total of around 100 books, far more than the 27 books of the Christian New Testament and the range of 5 to 39 books in the Hebrew Bible.
Are There More than 66 Books in the Bible? | The Bible and Beyond Blog
That excludes the books that got left out for various political and random reasons.
As you say, people have 'understood' the bible in different ways and are still doing it. They 'understand' it in the ways that suit them and each 'knows' that their way of ‘understanding' it is the right way. People adapt and create their own wildly different meaning on it. They create institutions from the differences, schism and form traditions and go to war about them. It's all very, very human.
Even within the same set of books there are three fundamentally different belief structures to 'understand' - Jew, Muslim and Christian form different 'understandings'.
And that's just this one tradition with its book, there are literally hundreds of other so called Holy Books that different religious groups 'understand' in their own way.
List of religious texts - Wikipedia
There's absolutely no reason why your 'understanding' is the correct one - it's purely random chance that you were born into a part of Western culture that uses a particular form of Christian book at this time and interprets it in a particular way. 500 years ago it would have been 'understood' in a way you wouldn't recognise and in 500 years time it will be different again. It's a human invention that changes as human culture developes. It's US that change, not your 'understanding' or the meaning of what was written by unknown human authors thousands of years ago by ignorant and superstitious desert tribes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2398 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2420 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2406 of 3694 (910803)
05-15-2023 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2405 by GDR
05-15-2023 5:19 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I simply believe that at the root of everything is intelligence.
When you look at the world, how it works and how all life here suffers and dies, do you see intelligence?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2405 by GDR, posted 05-15-2023 5:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2422 by GDR, posted 05-29-2023 2:29 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 2435 by GDR, posted 06-05-2023 6:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2413 of 3694 (910831)
05-18-2023 12:34 PM


Why would anyone choose this stupid Christian faith let alone follow it to their deaths?
Kenya cult: Children targeted to die first, pastor says - BBC News

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2414 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2023 2:59 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 2415 by Phat, posted 05-18-2023 3:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
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