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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2341 of 3694 (910559)
04-26-2023 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2337 by Tangle
04-26-2023 4:36 PM


Re: Why not how
Tangle writes:
Why do you think that there needs to be a why?
Do you believe that life evolved by blind chance one way or another and if not then what is your belief about why life exists at all?
Sure, we can get along quite nicely without ever thinking about that and I assume that the vast majority do,

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2337 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2023 4:36 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2345 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:36 AM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2342 of 3694 (910564)
04-27-2023 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2340 by GDR
04-26-2023 7:17 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
That is as speculative as any answer.
It is actually less speculative than the idea that the first life was cellular. Obviously you haven’t studied this field.
quote:
Without knowing how it came about I contend it is more reasonable to conclude that there was a cosmic intelligence responsible than that it came about from blind mindless chance, and of course it doesn't even begin to answer the question of why there was any RNA at all.
Oh, so you think that an uninformed opinion is better than all the work that science has done on this problem. You have no evidence for your contention worth speaking of.
quote:
OK, then how does it explain how it is that helping people on the other side of the planet from a completely different gene pool serves the interest of the genes when my gene pool is better served by destroying or enslaving them and having access to their resources for my own gene pool.
Let’s note that this concedes a good deal of grounds. But my answer is that it doesn’t - but it is the product of impulses that do, and did in humanity’s earlier evolution. After all that ability to do that much is a very recent thing on that timescale.
To put it simply, there is in human psychology a basic division between “us” and “them” - and impulses to help those considered “us”. That categorisation is not dictated by evolution (there was no need) so people who accept that “us” is a very wide group can be moved to go and help others who live very distantly,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2340 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 7:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2348 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 4:50 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2343 of 3694 (910565)
04-27-2023 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2338 by GDR
04-26-2023 6:38 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Here is an article from USA Today done in 2017. Creationism support is at a new low
The opinion piece in USA Today quotes a Gallup poll from 2017 saying that those accepting evolution is 38%. I gave you the same Gallup poll from 2019 which had it at 40%. Being nice to you, I'd say that was inside the error bars.
The point is, that a ridiculously high proportion of the population of the USA believe something truly stupid because religious organisations tell them too.
and as you believe that the best explanation is that everything evolved simply by mindless, fortuitous chance.
That's not what I believe. How many times? We KNOW that all life on earth - including H.sapiens - evolved by a process of descent with modification. This is a fact, not a belief.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2338 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 6:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2349 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 4:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2344 of 3694 (910566)
04-27-2023 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2336 by GDR
04-26-2023 4:36 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Firstly I have never seen anything Darwinian that goes beyond the idea of survival of the fittest. I see nothing in there that suggests an evolutionary process that would lead us to overcome our basic instincts for our own survival and well being. Certainly co-operation can fit into that but not empathy and more particularly altruism.
Then you are at odds with science. You haven't seen anything because you ignore or reject what is shown to you.
Secondly, I don't believe in a god who directly controls the world. Yes, I believe God influences human and quite possibly even all conscious thought, although easily ignored, but that is a very different thing.
You believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. It's purely made up. If your god influences us he's doing it in a way that looks exactly like he isn't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2336 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 4:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2346 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2023 3:30 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 2351 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 5:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2345 of 3694 (910568)
04-27-2023 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2341 by GDR
04-26-2023 7:21 PM


Re: Why not how
GDR writes:
Do you believe that life evolved by blind chance one way or another and if not then what is your belief about why life exists at all?

Sure, we can get along quite nicely without ever thinking about that and I assume that the vast majority do,
My answer to how life came about here on earth is that I don't know. But I asked you why you think there needs to be a why? This is not an answer.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2341 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 7:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2352 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 5:17 PM Tangle has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2346 of 3694 (910570)
04-27-2023 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2344 by Tangle
04-27-2023 2:28 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
Then you are at odds with science. You haven't seen anything because you ignore or reject what is shown to you.
GDR says that all the study he does is evidence that he cares about the truth. Yet here he is making arguments in an area where his “study” is skimming a Wikipedia page, misunderstanding even the material he quotes and ignoring all corrections (for instance Message 16). And he has been doing this for more than ten years.
Hey, GDR do I need to make it more obvious that you are only interested in propping up your own beliefs regardless of the truth? Or are you going to - at last - have the honesty to admit it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2344 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:28 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 2347 of 3694 (910583)
04-27-2023 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2335 by GDR
04-26-2023 4:08 PM


Re: Why not how
GDR writes:
Your reply is based simply on a materialistic view of the world and the only evidence available that is pertinent is scientific.
My view is based on anything at all that can accurately describe reality.
Right now, the only thing we know of that does that is evidence.
I'm open to you showing me anything though, if you know of another.
It's not my fault that only green circles (natural processes) come out of the bag.
But I will be honest about the fact that this is what's happening.
Certainly scientific evidence is more compelling but it answers different question.
Scientific evidence answers the exact same questions.
You, specifically "you - GDR," have a subjective response where you don't like those answers and "don't accept" them.
You not accepting what the evidence is showing us is not the same thing as the evidence not answering the question.
I'm repeating myself but we can look scientifically at evolutionary theory but that won't tell you why evolution exists in the first place even if science is able to solve the riddle of abiogenesis.
No, of course it wouldn't.
However, we can look at the rest of the world and see that the answer to "why does evolution occur at all?" is: Because this is the universe we find ourselves in and when replicators replicate - evolution occurs.
Just like "why do rocks roll downhill?"
Because this is the universe we find ourselves in and when rocks are dropped they roll downhill.
All you're left with is "why is this the universe we find ourselves in?"
And the answer is: We don't know. Perhaps it has to be this way. Perhaps we'll never find out. But all the evidence shows us that the answer is NOT "because God made it this way." Because the evidence shows us that God does not exist in order to do anything at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2335 by GDR, posted 04-26-2023 4:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2353 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 6:52 PM Stile has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2348 of 3694 (910603)
04-28-2023 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2342 by PaulK
04-27-2023 12:34 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
It is actually less speculative than the idea that the first life was cellular. Obviously you haven’t studied this field.
I have no idea as to whether the first life was cellular or not. The point is that whatever was first cellular or otherwise required something to initiate it. Was it from blind chance or was from intelligence?
GDR writes:
Without knowing how it came about I contend it is more reasonable to conclude that there was a cosmic intelligence responsible than that it came about from blind mindless chance, and of course it doesn't even begin to answer the question of why there was any RNA at all.
PaulK writes:
Oh, so you think that an uninformed opinion is better than all the work that science has done on this problem. You have no evidence for your contention worth speaking of.
How about you outline to me what science has discovered about why, not how, life came into existence.
Here is the best explanation I have been able to find. The cell: A Molecular Approach
Here is one quote from that article.
quote:
The First Cell
It appears that life first emerged at least 3.8 billion years ago, approximately 750 million years after Earth was formed (Figure 1.1). How life originated and how the first cell came into being are matters of speculation, since these events cannot be reproduced in the laboratory. Nonetheless, several types of experiments provide important evidence bearing on some steps of the process.
PaulK writes:
Let’s note that this concedes a good deal of grounds. But my answer is that it doesn’t - but it is the product of impulses that do, and did in humanity’s earlier evolution. After all that ability to do that much is a very recent thing on that timescale.

To put it simply, there is in human psychology a basic division between “us” and “them” - and impulses to help those considered “us”. That categorisation is not dictated by evolution (there was no need) so people who accept that “us” is a very wide group can be moved to go and help others who live very distantly,
That is speculation without scientific evidence, which doesn't mean that you're wrong. However Darwinism is again about survival of the fittest and looking out for the us when it benefits the self. So, if you're correct you have to be looking at something beyound Darwinian evolution.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2342 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2023 12:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2350 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2023 5:09 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2349 of 3694 (910604)
04-28-2023 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2343 by Tangle
04-27-2023 2:16 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Let’s note that this concedes a good deal of grounds. But my answer is that it doesn’t - but it is the product of impulses that do, and did in humanity’s earlier evolution. After all that ability to do that much is a very recent thing on that timescale.

To put it simply, there is in human psychology a basic division between “us” and “them” - and impulses to help those considered “us”. That categorisation is not dictated by evolution (there was no need) so people who accept that “us” is a very wide group can be moved to go and help others who live very distantly,
Can't argue with that.
Tangle writes:
That's not what I believe. How many times? We KNOW that all life on earth - including H.sapiens - evolved by a process of descent with modification. This is a fact, not a belief.
I agree, but how do you know whether that process is by design or by chance.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2343 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:16 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2354 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2023 7:04 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2355 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2023 7:05 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2350 of 3694 (910605)
04-28-2023 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2348 by GDR
04-28-2023 4:50 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
I have no idea as to whether the first life was cellular or not.
Then maybe you shouldn’t use the idea that it was cellular in your arguments.
quote:
The point is that whatever was first cellular or otherwise required something to initiate it. Was it from blind chance or was from intelligence?
There is no plausible explanation based on intelligence as the cause. No known intelligence that could have caused it. No evidence that an intelligence is needed. No plausible motive for the presumed intelligence to create life in that way.
quote:
How about you outline to me what science has discovered about why, not how, life came into existence.
They’ve found no reason to think that there is what you would call a “why”. So long as your ideas are unfalsifiable there is no need to falsify them or any significance in the fact that it has not been falsified. It is for you to provide evidence.
quote:
That is speculation without scientific evidence, which doesn't mean that you're wrong
Oh, it is not without evidence. The existence of tribalism is a fact. That humans can consider distant people who they have never met to be part of “us” is a fact. The benefits from members of a group helping each other is a fact.
quote:
However Darwinism is again about survival of the fittest and looking out for the us when it benefits the self.
After more than ten years and you still don’t understood the concept of the “selfish gene”. You’re wrong. And wilfully wrong. If you cared about the truth you would have set yourself right by now - not that you had any excuse for getting it so wrong in the first place.
quote:
So, if you're correct you have to be looking at something beyound Darwinian evolution.
No, I just have to know more about it than you. Which is not difficult when even reading one Wikipedia page is too much for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2348 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 4:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2356 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 7:20 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2351 of 3694 (910606)
04-28-2023 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2344 by Tangle
04-27-2023 2:28 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Firstly I have never seen anything Darwinian that goes beyond the idea of survival of the fittest. I see nothing in there that suggests an evolutionary process that would lead us to overcome our basic instincts for our own survival and well being. Certainly co-operation can fit into that but not empathy and more particularly altruism.
Tangle writes:
Then you are at odds with science. You haven't seen anything because you ignore or reject what is shown to you.
Darwin didn't originate but used the term "survival of the fittest". Are you saying that he was wrong? You have shown by observation that empathy and altruism evolved over time. What precipitated that process?
Tangle writes:
You believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. It's purely made up.
That's true if only scientific evidence is taken into account. Not all human reasoning is science based.
Tangle writes:
If your god influences us he's doing it in a way that looks exactly like he isn't.
I agree. However all of what you say is consistent with my belief that humans have experience over the years, (as can be seen in the narrative that can be seen in the Bible), a progressive understanding of the nature of God, and of His purpose for our lives. However, I agree that it isn't directly discernible from it happening in a way that is consistent with your belief, We do disagree on which POV is more rational.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2344 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:28 AM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2352 of 3694 (910607)
04-28-2023 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2345 by Tangle
04-27-2023 2:36 AM


Re: Why not how
Tangle writes:
My answer to how life came about here on earth is that I don't know. But I asked you why you think there needs to be a why? This is not an answer.
I don't know either. However, if there is an intelligent first cause that is responsible for life then I would suggest that anyone with human curiosity would like to know what we can discern about that intelligence. It is that same human curiosity that drives scientific research.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2345 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:36 AM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2353 of 3694 (910608)
04-28-2023 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2347 by Stile
04-27-2023 9:17 AM


Re: Why not how
Stile writes:
Scientific evidence answers the exact same questions.
You, specifically "you - GDR," have a subjective response where you don't like those answers and "don't accept" them.

You not accepting what the evidence is showing us is not the same thing as the evidence not answering the question.
I'm not at all sure what answers, that are physically evidenced that I don't accept. I agree that my belief that we exist because of an intelligent first cause is subjective, but so is the belief that we exist strictly from processes that have only a mindless first cause. I also agree that all you will get out of the bag are your green circles which of course eliminates any philosophical thought or evidence.
Stile writes:
No, of course it wouldn't.
However, we can look at the rest of the world and see that the answer to "why does evolution occur at all?" is: Because this is the universe we find ourselves in and when replicators replicate - evolution occurs.

Just like "why do rocks roll downhill?"
Because this is the universe we find ourselves in and when rocks are dropped they roll downhill.

All you're left with is "why is this the universe we find ourselves in?"

And the answer is: We don't know. Perhaps it has to be this way. Perhaps we'll never find out. But all the evidence shows us that the answer is NOT "because God made it this way." Because the evidence shows us that God does not exist in order to do anything at all.
The rock rolls down the hill as a result of an exterior cause. It might be a quake, a shifting in the earth, a shove etc and on top of that gravity. What's your point?
However, we all come to our own unevidenced belief as to whether we exist from mindless processes or from processes set in motion by an intelligence. I believe in the latter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2347 by Stile, posted 04-27-2023 9:17 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2363 by Stile, posted 05-01-2023 8:46 AM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2354 of 3694 (910611)
04-28-2023 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2349 by GDR
04-28-2023 4:55 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I agree, but how do you know whether that process is by design or by chance.
Because we know the mechanism! Mutations are chance occurrences

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2349 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 4:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2357 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 7:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2355 of 3694 (910612)
04-28-2023 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2349 by GDR
04-28-2023 4:55 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I agree, but how do you know whether that process is by design or by chance.
Design or natural processes? Majik or chemistry?
We have reason to hypothesize that the ‘design’ argument leaves different marks on the universe then natural processes. The interactions of particles and energy gradients is very well understood. We can see quite deep into the workings, the ebb and flow of energy, in this universe. There does not appear to be anything but what is naturally expected on both the largest and smallest cosmic scales.
If there were a designer it’s work is indistinguishable from nature. Spinoza?
But you go beyond just ‘designer’. You want to go to gods. You want to say the very operations of nature, the operations we have modeled, the equations we consider ‘laws of nature’ are god determined, god driven and so intervening and mucking about and covering it up is child’s (god’s) play.
I still can’t see where that differs any from the natural we already know. This universe appears just as it coulda/shoulda/woulda if all there is, is nature. There is no reason, no need, to suppose such a god thing. The god meme has no reason to exist. It doesn’t do anything.
You want to see spooky consciously deliberate actions and influences in its workings. But nature appears to be only capable of being nature and doing natural things. It may be spooky seen in ignorance but nature doesn’t do consciously deliberate spooky things.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2349 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 4:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2364 by GDR, posted 05-01-2023 4:49 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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