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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 997 of 1110 (910416)
04-22-2023 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 980 by Kleinman
04-22-2023 9:54 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
You seem to have gotten a very tiny bit out of the Bible. You missed the part where Jesus said, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her".
So you think society should be guided by a book with obvious contradictions.
And you still don't understand why STDs are so widespread in the world.
You still don't understand that if you want to discuss STDs you should open a new thread.
If you want to take advice from a witch, that is your choice. Why don't you tell us what good ideas or explanations you have gotten from witches?
So you believe in witches, do you?
Kleinman:
It is called preparation.
Percy:
So you're not yet prepared for this discussion.

Perhaps not.
Maybe you should come back when you're prepared.
That's the point, Percy. The line that you pull from these papers is not a conclusion, otherwise, they would post the data to support that conclusion. Why the authors would put in such a line is open for debate.
If by data you mean raw data, raw data doesn't usually appear in such papers. Depending upon the paper, typical sections are methodology, results, analysis and conclusions. If you didn't see any results or analysis then you must have been looking with your eyes closed.
It is an example of good intentions being insufficient in writing a law. It doesn't remove the stigma from someone with HIV and it doesn't prevent an unknowing person from being injured.
And what caused you to think this was relevant to the discussion at the time?
Percy:
Why do you think masks and vaccinations do not reduce the spread and severity of respiratory pandemics?
We can go around on this as much as you want.
Then answer the question instead of just asking more questions and changing the subject to polio. Why do you think masks and vaccinations do not reduce the spread and severity of respiratory pandemics?
Point to the first time you wrote about this obvious point. You don't have to limit yourself to this thread.
Like I said, I think you're having trouble following or recalling the discussion.
Even the people of New York found Cuomo's decision-making capability lacking.
Why did you say Cuomo was confining elderly people when he wasn't, making it impossible for anyone to know what you were talking about? And why now do you see the need to argue a point no one is contesting?
I notice you didn't tell us whether you think that people have a right to self-defense.
Do you think a covid thread is a good place to begin a discussion about the right to self-defense?
People do have a right to free medical care paid for by society according to you.
You do have a problem keeping your facts straight.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 980 by Kleinman, posted 04-22-2023 9:54 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1000 by Kleinman, posted 04-22-2023 3:59 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1004 of 1110 (910435)
04-22-2023 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1000 by Kleinman
04-22-2023 3:59 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Go for it, show the contradictions in the Bible.
My, my, you *do* have a problem staying on topic. I just wanted to know if you really want society's goals (health related ones in this thread, of course) guided by a book full of contradictions after you described one of them yourself, about death and/or stoning to death (Deuteronony/Leviticus) or not stoning (Jesus in John).
Do you want society's goals to be guided only by the Bible, or are the books of other religions allowed, too?
Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?
You still don't understand, STDs are infectious diseases transmitted by the behavior of people. Do you think Covid can be transmitted by promiscuous behavior, even if they wear masks?
Do you get things wrong on purpose, or is your comprehension really this bad?
There are people that proclaim themselves witches, you should debate this point with them.
And some people think they're Napoleon. Do you argue with them, too?
Why? It has never stopped you.
Yes, I can see you're in your element now. Unable to discuss intelligently, your goal is to cause chaos and bring discussion down to the mudslinging level so that onlookers can't tell who is the idiot. We can't stop you from going on this way. Only you can.
You like to post graphs. Where is your graph that shows that show that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared with regions that didn't have a mask mandate.
Where is your graph that shows that they don't?
Do you think a general mask mandate was done with good intentions, if so, show the data that describes the outcome.
You *do* like repeating yourself.
Where have I said that vaccinations do not reduce the severity of respiratory infections?
So you *do* believe that vaccinations reduce the severity of respiratory infections? Do you also believe they can reduce the likelihood that someone will become ill with an infection? Do you understand that making illness less likely reduces spread? And that reducing spread reduces illness and death? And that therefore unvaccinated people in public spaces increase illness and death?
I get it, you can't point to a message that shows you understand that people with weakened immune systems and comorbidities (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma,...) are at much greater risk from diseases that might be considered mild.
I suggest you search the thread and see which of us was first to use the term "comorbidities". Maybe it will refresh your memory.
Cuomo was sending people from the hospital to convalesent homes where elderly people were residing.
Not surprising that you've got this backwards. Cuomo wasn't sending people to nursing homes. He was preventing nursing homes from denying admission to covid infected people.
You are the one saying health care is a right.
I think your mind is playing tricks on you, or perhaps it's jumping to conclusions. Is your mind usually this unreliable?
Now, what are you trying to force people to do.
Only you know, so you'll just have to tell us what your little imagination has cooked up out of thin air.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1000 by Kleinman, posted 04-22-2023 3:59 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1006 by Kleinman, posted 04-22-2023 7:08 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 1007 of 1110 (910448)
04-23-2023 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Kleinman
04-22-2023 7:08 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Don't you know that God made a new covenant? Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. There were many reasons why the woman with Jesus wasn't stoned. Not the least of the reasons was that all the men (from the oldest to the youngest) had their own sins to be dealt with. They did not hold a trial, they did not bring the man caught in adultery forward to be stoned. They were not dealing justly according to Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
Awww, you believe all this stuff. That's so adorable.
Percy writes:
Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?
Do you mean influences that you don't agree with?
No. Why would you think that? Is your mind playing tricks on you again? Why do you think religion should influence public health policy? And would that be only Christian religion or all religions?
So, do you think that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets?
You still seem to be having a problem with recall. See Message 838, a reply to you.
You also continually repeat the mistake of thinking that the first time someone mentions something is the first time they've become aware of it. But people don't do complete brain dumps in every message. What they know comes out gradually during discussion as it wanders among subtopics.
You will have to ask the people that proclaim themselves witches.
I think debating self-proclaimed witches is *your* thing. I'm glad you're letting them live, though.
Who is doing the mudslinging? All I'm doing is pointing out the facts. Why does that cause chaos?
Yep, nothing going on here, folks, if he does say so himself. Sugar wouldn't melt in his mouth.
Apparently, epidemiologists don't have any data to graph on whether masks help or not to prevent the spread of Covid.
And yet if you do a Google image search, there they are.
You could post a graph that shows that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared to a region without a mask mandate and stop this repetition right now.
Try this one:
I've said this before and I'll post the message number if you want. What I have also said is that people that don't want to get vaccinated put themselves at greater risk but that is their free choice and they should not be sanctioned for their choice. It is you that want to force people to get vaccinations.
Balancing personal freedom against public safety is a tough call. I have no easy answers for you. Does that sound familiar? It should, because this must be the third or fourth time I've said it. But you don't care about what people actually say. You just make it up
I started posting on this thread on Message 612 in response to your Message 611. I've been pointing out this issue of comorbidities with Covid, influenza, and many other "milder" viral infections since the beginning of the Covid episode. I'm glad you finally figured it out in this thread, it is about time.
You didn't do the search I suggested, did you. If you do that search you'll see that the first to mention comorbidities was not you.
And why do you think people are unaware of comorbidity? It's one of the simpler things about disease to understand. All it means is that someone is dealing with at least one other medical issue. Why do you think this is a difficult concept? I guess your obvious insecurities drive you to say things that make you feel smarter.
So, Cuomo was forcing nursing homes to take Covid patients even thought the operators knew the risk.
Hey, you've finally got it right. Congratulations. Only took you three tries.
That's the kind of leadership you like. Send people to nursing homes that are filled with people that have comorbidities and surprise, surprise, you get thousands of deaths. Of course, with your knowledge of comorbidities, you could see what Cuomo did would have a bad outcome.
There you go, making things up in your own mind again.
But it *is* a difficult question. When hospitals have no more room for covid patients, where should the overflow go in the case of the elderly?
Can't you make up your mind, is health care a right or is it not a right?
Why do you even have to ask? What makes you think anyone out there believes health care is a right in this country.
Did you mean to ask whether I believe health care should be a right? I can only repeat what I've said before. I think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. I haven't said anything about the means of achieving this.
Percy writes:
Now, what are you trying to force people to do.
Only you know, so you'll just have to tell us what your little imagination has cooked up out of thin air.
Don't worry, it will be substantiated with experimental and empirical evidence and will be mathematically logical.
Not only do you falsely think I'm trying to force people to do something, you think you can substantiate this claim with "experimental and empirical evidence [that] will be mathematically logical" when you don't even know who I am. That doesn't make any sense at all. You are truly confused and delusional.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Kleinman, posted 04-22-2023 7:08 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1008 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 11:44 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1009 of 1110 (910455)
04-23-2023 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by Kleinman
04-23-2023 11:44 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
You might not find it so adorable when God judges you. Awww, you don't believe all this stuff.
Watch out for the boogieman, too.
I think everyone has the right to influence health policy, it is called the right to free speech. It appears you have a problem with free speech when you say, "Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?".
Still making stuff up, I see. So tell us which religions should be informing society's health policies, and what should they be telling them?
Feel free to post a quote from any of your links that say that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets and that the virus cannot be transmitted during sexual contact other than by inhaling droplets. You won't. You are confused and wrong.
Is English your second language?
You have a very short memory, it was you that brought up the topic of witches. You are really having trouble making a coherent argument.
Actually you prompted the mention of witches by citing the Bible as a source of health policy. So how are you and those witches getting along?
Now Percy brings up "sugar". You are still having difficulty putting together a coherent argument.
Yeah, right. You can't even recognize a figure of speech.
In response to the graph on masks you say:
Let's consider some of the numbers...etc...
You said there were no graphs on masks, so I showed you a graph on masks. Wrong again, huh Kleinman? You then ramble on for two long nonsensical paragraphs casting random aspersions at a study you haven't even seen and then finish up with...wait for it...A YOUTUBE VIDEO! Good show!
You are wrong Percy, I do care about what people say.
Of course you do. That's why you ignore what people actually say and respond as if they said something else. Unable to counter the actual arguments you make up nonsensical ones that are manageable for you, and then you (no Kleinman post would be complete without this) declare how wonderful you are and how little everyone else understands.
I ended up in a profession that is strongly influenced by what people say.
I can only comment on what I see, and what I see here is you ignoring and denigrating people. I expect that carries over to all aspects of your life, including your professional life where it isn't your opinion of yourself that counts but your patients.
Now you know what searches I've done or haven't done. Do you want me to post Message 574?
Hey, you did a search! Congratulations! Next time maybe do the search before making stupid comments instead of after.
You don't understand the difficulty of assigning a cause of death when a person has comorbidities? You don't understand that assigning a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company.
You're repeating yourself. Again. As you already know, excess deaths were pretty close to covid deaths, so there's little substance to the claim that covid deaths were misclassified.
Hopefully, you watched the video I linked to earlier in this message so that you can get a clue on this.
As the Forum Guidelines make clear, present the information and make the argument in your own words, and your YouTube video can serve as a supporting reference.
Percy writes:
But it *is* a difficult question. When hospitals have no more room for covid patients, where should the overflow go in the case of the elderly?
Have you forgot what Trump tried to do for New York?
https://www.nbcnews.com/...-sees-navy-hospital-ship-n1171256
President Donald Trump visited Norfolk, Va. on Saturday to see off the USNS Comfort, a Navy hospital ship that is headed to New York to provide extra space and support to medical workers in the fight against the coronavirus outbreak.
So your argument is that because Trump sent a hospital ship to help out during a pandemic that that created a right to health care?
By the way, the intent was not for the hospital ship to provide covid care but to provide care for people with other ailments, thereby relieving pressure on New York City's hospital system. Unfortunately the hospital ship was barely used due to "a tangle of military protocols and bureaucratic hurdles..." (USNS Comfort Hospital Ship Was Supposed to Aid New York. It Has 3 Patients. - The New York Times)
That's really helpful. You think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. If you aren't going to thank God for that, you should thank a farmer for that.
This didn't make sense.
You don't even understand what persuasion is.
I don't think you should be claiming any competence in persuasion. You seem driven to draw as much scorn as possible. Even someone making rational arguments couldn't persuade anyone using your approach.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 11:44 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1011 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 3:21 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 1017 of 1110 (910463)
04-23-2023 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Kleinman
04-23-2023 3:21 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Wow! When you go off the deep end you really go whole hog. Addressing the on-topic parts...
Now we know what you think is a significant effect of a mask mandate.
It isn't what I think that matters. What matters is whether there's sufficient evidence to form a consensus among health authorities about the efficacy of masks.
No one is talking mask mandates but you. What I've said repeatedly is that balancing personal freedom against public safety is a tough call.
And you have less of an understanding of comorbidities.
That's what you always say about everything. Do even you believe you?
All you do is post a graph that show that a mask mandate had no significant effect on the spread of Covid...
I think you have your eyes closed.
...and claim that people that have a different viewpoint than you should not have input on societal healthcare.
Are you going to tell us what religions you think should be setting health policy?
Next, Percy is going to tell us that Pfizer and Moderna didn't make a fortune off of Covid vaccine. Percy, you have no idea how pharmaceutical companies work. You are so naive.
Do you realize how absurd you sound? You're calling naive something no one said but you.
Did you watch the video of a physician/legislator who reports that Covid data was being overemphasized by how it was being reported on death certificates?
I did look up Scott Jensen. He's an anti-vaxxer who claims covid deaths are overstated because many had comorbidities that would have caused their deaths within two or three years anyway.
It couldn't be because Pfizer and Moderna made billions of dollars off of their vaccines. You are so naive.
We still don't know what your point is.
I realize this is difficult for you to understand but this is a contrast between what Trump wanted to do and what Cuomo did.
I think you must have arguments going on in your head that you're not letting anyone else in on. No one has any idea why you've launched into this Trump/Cuomo comparison.
I realize it is hard for you to see the obvious, but a well-fed population is healthier than a starving population.
Many things seem obvious to conspiracy theorists.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 3:21 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1019 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 9:35 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1018 of 1110 (910464)
04-24-2023 9:05 AM


Excess Mortality
Here again is the excess mortality graph for the US from 1/5/2020 until 2/26/2023. Up to this point there has not been a decline into negative numbers that would balance the excess deaths prior to now. If claims that the excess deaths were mostly people who would have died within a couple years or so anyway, that they just died a little prematurely because of covid, then the rest of this year should see this number decline deep into the negative numbers. We'll just watch and see:
It's important to keep in mind that excess mortality always evens out over time, because everyone dies eventually. A teen killed in a car accident today becomes an excess mortality statistic today but a deficit mortality statistic 70 or so years from now when he would normally have been expected to die.
This means that the million plus US citizens who died of covid during the pandemic and showed up as excess mortality statistics will eventually show up as deficit mortality statistics down the road. That's inevitable. But if the claim that most of these people would have died within a couple years anyway is true then deficit mortality will become significant very soon. If it doesn't then it shows these claims wrong.
My personal experience is that most everyone I know has comorbidities that I'm aware of and likely additional ones that I'm not, but my peer group seems to be living well into their 80's on average anyway. My mother had three serious comorbidities and lived to be 96. She died of old age in bed despite her comorbidities.
Doctors in traditional practice, i.e., not on the battlefield, should not be playing God and making treatment decisions based upon who they think will live or die. They should be doing their best to administer the best possible healthcare to all their patients.
Here's a mask chart from December of 2020 showing new covid cases per 100,000 versus whether the states had mask mandates or not:
(from Why every state should have a mask mandate, in 4 charts - Vox)
Only southern states managed to maintain low covid rates without a mask mandate, which makes sense given their greater ability to spend time outdoors. The sole exception is New Hampshire where most of the population lives in the southern part of the state and often follows Massachusetts lead, which did have mask mandates. I can vouch for the fact that in grocery stores (the most crowded place I usually visit) the mask wearing rate was around 80% during covid peaks.
The second bivalent booster should be available in pharmacies here soon, and we'll be signing up when they are.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1020 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 9:53 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1021 of 1110 (910467)
04-24-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1019 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 9:35 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Which authorities?
Health authorities at the federal, state and local levels.
Do you mean authorities like Anthony Fauci who told Joe Biden that getting vaccinated prevents you from spreading the disease?
The closest I could find to Fauci saying anything like this was on CBS's "Face the Nation" back in May of 2021:
Anthony Fauci:
So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it.
Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
In the case of covid, the disease killed nearly .4% of the country (1,129,573 at last count) while the vaccine killed almost no one while preventing innumerable deaths. There were nine known deaths due to rare blood clots caused by the J&J vaccine (Posts mischaracterize CDC data on COVID-19 vaccine deaths | AP News), and there were undoubtedly more, but that's what I could find. Even if there were as many as 100 deaths due to the vaccines, given that 665 million doses have been administered that's a death rate of .000015%, or about 25,000 times smaller than the covid death rate.
But even if there were some incredible number of deaths due to the vaccine, say 23,000 (the number of adverse effects reported to the CDC's VAERS system), given those 665 million doses that's a death rate of .003%, or nearly 200 times less than the covid death rate. So even if every reported adverse reaction were an actual death, the vaccine is still far safer than the disease.
Percy, tell us what you know about comorbidities. If someone has cancer or heart disease, and covid and dies, what is his cause of death?
I'm not a doctor or a medical examiner, but the amount of information you provide seems insufficient. Most commonly covid attacks the lungs and interferes with the uptake of oxygen, which is why so many ventilators were needed. Blood clots and cytokine storms can happen. Opportunistic diseases like pneumonia can play a role.
By the way, here is the CDC guidance for filling out death certificates for covid: Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
.
Why in July is the spread of covid twice as high in counties where people wear masks than in counties where people aren't wearing masks?
At the beginning of July the covid rate looks to be about three times as high in those counties that decided to adopt a mandate. The higher rate is probably why they adopted it. Within a couple weeks after adopting the mask mandate their case rate began declining and then fluctuated.
But in counties that adopted no mandate and though their case rate started from a much lower base, within a couple months it had exceeded that of the mandate counties and just kept climbing.
The article provides no information about which counties were involved, but I imagine the higher initial rate in the counties that eventually adopted mandates were more urban.
I'm still wondering why you think societal health policies should be guided by the Bible, and about what other religions' holy books you would also permit.
That's the reason you are so naive. You don't understand that vaccinations can be a very profitable business. Then Tangle can start a thread that tells us we are all saved while Pfizer and Moderna are laughing all the way to the bank.
Can you explain to us why you object to vaccine manufacturers making large profits? I question it, too, I'm just surprised to hear you making anti-capitalist comments. I guess it's okay for companies to make profits in areas you agree with, presumably areas like petroleum, mining, oil and gas exploration, gas-powered cars and coal-fired power plants, but not on things you disagree with like vaccines, masks, solar and wind power, etc.
I had never heard of Scott Jensen until I saw this video.
I'd never heard of him either. Since you'd never heard of him, what makes you think he's a reliable source of information? Just that he says things you agree with and wish were true?
Now you make an accusation that he is an anti-vaxxer.
With respect to covid, yes, he is. From Wikipedia (Scott Jensen - Wikipedia(Minnesota_politician):
quote:
During the COVID-19 pandemic, Jensen was known for his criticisms of COVID-19 lockdowns and promotion of COVID-19 anti-vaccination falsehoods.
...
Jensen aligned himself with the COVID-19 anti-vaccination movement. In May 2021, he sued the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in an attempt to prevent children from receiving COVID-19 vaccinations. His fellow plaintiffs in the suit included anti-vaccine activist Simone Gold and the right-wing political organization America's Frontline Doctors (AFD). AFD had attracted notoriety for its promotion of false and misleading COVID-19 claims. The complaint, filed in federal court in Alabama, falsely called the COVID-19 vaccines a dangerous "experimental biological agent".[48] The affidavit claimed that "it would be reckless to subject anyone in that age group to the experimental COVID-19 vaccine", and Jensen said that giving children the vaccine "would violate his oath as a doctor and place him in an untenable position".In a later interview, Jensen said he had "quietly" been a member of AFD and had been unaware of the involvement of the group's founder, Gold, in the January 6 United States Capitol attack. He also said he did not read the whole petition before signing it. In the same interview, Jensen said, against medical consensus, that he does not recommend COVID-19 vaccines for "young and healthy" people. He was banned from TikTok in April 2021 and restricted from advertising on Facebook in July 2021 for violating community guidelines barring the promotion of COVID-19 misinformation.
Are you so naive that you don't understand that people can be motivated by money?
You're arguing with arguments you made up yourself, not with anything I said.
Cuomo sent covid patients to nursing homes where people already had many comorbidities causing thousands of people to die.
You do realize, I hope, that you're getting this backwards again.
You have your conspiracy theories and I have mine.
No, only you. I think that for some people conspiracy theories trigger something in the brain that makes them irresistible. The conspiracy theories become obsessions, almost an addiction like gambling.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 9:35 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1022 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 4:07 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1023 of 1110 (910470)
04-24-2023 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1020 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 9:53 AM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman writes:
Watch and see what?
Watch and see what happens with excess deaths for the rest of the year by revisiting that graph every so often. If the claims that people who died would have died anyway within a couple years or so then the excess mortality rate should dive over the course of this year.
Do you think that a reduction of 2500 cases per 100,000 people to 1500 cases per 100,000 people in a month is a significant reduction? And that reduction can be attributed solely to masks?
All that can be established with these kinds of studies is correlation. In this case the chart indicates that a correlation likely exists between mask mandates and lower covid case rates.
Reducing the case rate by 1000 per 100,000 per month seems very significant. In a state of 10 million that's a reduction of 100,000 cases per month, and with a covid death rate of, say, 1% (an optimistic figure for 2020), that would be 12,000 fewer deaths over the course of a year, also a very significant number.
Get as many vaccines and boosters as you want, especially if you can get somebody else to pay for them.
A society that vaccinates as many people as possible for covid makes it less likely that covid will spread, creating a healthier society. The less likely that, for example, the people you're walking by on the street or sitting nearby you in a restaurant are infected, the less likely it is that you'll be infected yourself.
I just came back from my second bivalent shot. I don't how severe the latest variant is, but I'd like to avoid catching covid if I can. The US is still experiencing about 14,000 cases and 250 deaths per week. The case rate is severely underreported because almost everyone now uses home tests and don't usually report a positive test. Probably only covid cases serious enough to force the seeking of medical treatment make it into the statistics these days.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1020 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 9:53 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1024 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 5:06 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 1025 of 1110 (910475)
04-24-2023 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1022 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 4:07 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman in Message 1022 writes:
Why don't you name them?
You want me to name all the health authorities at the federal, state or local level? Why? Can't you just look up any who interest you on the Internet? For instance, Google "director department health ca" and you'll see that it's Tomás J. Aragón. Anyway, yeah, guys like him at the federal, state and local levels, they're the health authorities.
That was close enough for Biden to get it wrong.
I don't know why you're rehashing this, but as I said the first time, I think Biden got it wrong at the CNN Town Hall all by himself.
You being an expert in comorbidities, how many of the 0.4% had comorbidities?
...
So, you don't know how many people had comorbidities that died.
Here's a link to that information, Comorbidities and other conditions, but can't you look up this kind of stuff yourself? And why are you so obsessed with comorbidities. I'm sorry you don't like that you weren't the first to bring it up, but you're going to have to live with it because that fact is embedded in the thread and isn't going away.
Why did counties where people wore mask have twice the incidence of covid than those counties that didn't wear masks in July?
The mask mandate in that graph began July 1. Do you have some kind of expectation that implementation, compliance and effect should be instantaneous? It looks like the rate continued rising for another couple weeks or so, then began falling, then fluctuated in a narrow range, while in the counties with no mandate the rate just kept climbing and climbing.
Did I say that? Please post the quote. You won't because false accusations is your way of debate.
Ironic accusation there. I had expressed the thought that a society that makes the good health of all its citizens a goal was better off, and you replied skeptically, so I asked what you thought society's goal should be. In reply in Message 965 you said, "Read the Bible and you can find out."
How many times are you going to pull this "I never said that" thing about things that are right there in your old posts.
I don't have a problem with companies making large profits. I have a problem with companies making large profits based on fear.
So you're against profits made on guns?
Perhaps you can teach me about solar power...
Why would I do that? What I asked you about was which industry's profits are okay by you. Since fear seems to the relevant factor to you, are solar and wind power profits okay with you even though they're based on fear of climate change? How about profits on sunscreen since they're based on fear of skin cancer?
I checked out if he was a physician and a state senator in Minnesota and both are true.
And he said things you agree with. You never checked whether they were true because you agree with him because you're as wrong as he is.
I doubt that many who are anti-vaxxers and anti-science describe themselves that way. They instead raise false concerns about vaccine safety and make false claims that they aren't needed. You and Jensen both quack exactly like the anti-vax ducks you are.
Jensen got banned on TikTok for pushing false anti-vax info. He hasn't gotten vaccinated even though he's 69. He seems to be a poor judge of people because his fellow plaintiff in the lawsuit to block vaccinations for those between 12 and 15 was arrested in the January 6th insurrection. He's a fellow traveler with prominent people in the anti-vax world. He won't state he's anti-science or anti-vax, only going as far as describing himself as a contrarian and skeptic, and you seem to be buying his bit. If he told you he doesn't drink while having a beer you'd probably believe him.
Now they go directly to patients through advertising and who knows what these drug companies are doing to the CDC and FDA. They certainly have the money to corrupt these organizations. But you know them, they would never do such a thing.
You're just spouting more conspiracy nonsense. When you find evidence of wrongdoing let us know.
Go ahead, and put your spin on it. While you are at it, put your spin on the thousands of deaths he caused.
The thing I can't figure out is how after finally getting it right you went right back to getting it wrong. Cuomo didn't confine patients in nursing homes. He prevented nursing homes from using covid status in making admission decisions.
Oh right. You got your anti-vaxxers, and anti-electric car people, and your anti-science people, and your anti-global warming people, and your anti-health care people,...
It isn't being anti-something that makes someone a conspiracy theorist. It's when the idea of something has such strong emotional appeal that it overwhelms the ability to objectively assess evidence. Conspiracy theorists seem to be particularly vulnerable to YouTube videos.
Just go get your booster shot paid for by other people and everything will be all right.
Our society as a whole paid for it, so thank you everyone! Remember, the person I end up not infecting could be you!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 4:07 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1027 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 8:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1026 of 1110 (910476)
04-24-2023 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1024 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 5:06 PM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman in Message 1024 writes:
You don't even know how comorbidities affect death rates. How many people died with covid had comorbidities?
I gave you a link to the info a couple messages ago (Comorbidities and other conditions), but what's important is excess deaths. If Jensen's claim is correct that many who died of covid whould have died anyway of other causes within two or three years then that will show up as a dip in excess deaths into the significantly negative.
Who needs studies, your mind is already made up.
I follow the evidence.
What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?
That would be counterintuitive. What would be the mechanism for such an effect? Do you have links to studies showing this? Zacharias Fögen speculates in his paper A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate about a "Fögen effect". One has to wonder about someone who names an effect for himself. There's also Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe by Beny Spira.
But a review (Scientific evidence shows that mask-wearing is effective at limiting community transmission; claims that face masks increase mortality are based on flawed correlation studies) found both studies to be seriously flawed.
But take a look at the papers and see what you think.
You should go to work for the drug companies.
I think you place a higher value on being right than on public health.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1024 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 5:06 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1028 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 8:59 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1029 of 1110 (910485)
04-25-2023 9:28 AM


Dr. Fauci Speaks
An Interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci by David Wallace-Wells appears in today's New York Times magazine. It is lengthy. Here are some excerpts. Sorry for the length, I tried to focus on the key issues, but this is much, much shorter than the full interview:
Dr. Anthony Fauci Interview:
Wallace-WellsOf course, there were mistakes and missteps, including some by Fauci: describing the threat to the country as “minuscule” in February 2020, for instance; or first advising against wearing masks, and moving slowly on aerosol spread; or playing down the risk of what were first called “breakthrough infections” in the summer of 2021. And the broader public-health establishment that Fauci came to embody made other mistakes, too, even if it wasn’t always easy to know at the time or identify later who exactly was responsible. Almost certainly, schools stayed closed longer than they needed to. Very conspicuously, American vaccination rates never approached the levels of peer nations — and the problem wasn’t just the anti-vaccine right. Quarantine guidance was abruptly shortened in the midst of the Omicron variant, when thresholds of community-spread levels were suddenly redefined as well. There was no effective paid sick leave instituted, and the official end of the pandemic emergency on May 11 imperils the Medicaid coverage of 15 million Americans.
FauciSomething clearly went wrong. And I don’t know exactly what it was. But the reason we know it went wrong is that we are the richest country in the world, and on a per-capita basis we’ve done worse than virtually all other countries.1 And there’s no reason that a rich country like ours has to have 1.1 million deaths. Unacceptable.
Wallace-WellsThere have been three times as many American deaths since Election Day 2020 as before. And we’ve done much worse, compared with our peers, since vaccination began than we had before.
FauciI mean, only 68 percent of the country is vaccinated. If you rank us among both developed and developing countries, we do really poorly. We’re not even in the top 10. We’re way down there.3 And then: Why do you have red states that are unvaccinated and blue states that are vaccinated? Why do you have death rates among Republicans that are higher than death rates among Democrats and independents?4 It should never ever be that way when you’re dealing with a public-health crisis...
...
ut right off the bat, we were dealing with a new type of vaccine, an mRNA vaccine. And there was this smoldering level of suspicion and that divisiveness in the country. And then there was the whole idea of people not getting vaccinated, and then came mandating.
Wallace-WellsYou think that was harmful?
FauciMan, I think, almost paradoxically, you had people who were on the fence about getting vaccinated thinking, why are they forcing me to do this? And that sometimes-beautiful independent streak in our country becomes counterproductive. And you have that smoldering anti-science feeling, a divisiveness that’s palpable politically in this country.
The thing that astounded me is that when there were surges of infections in certain regions and the hospitals were being overwhelmed, people were still saying it’s fake news. I mean, people whose loved ones were in the hospital were denying that it was Covid. It seems inconceivable. That’s why I have to say I really don’t know. I wish I had an answer, but some very strange psychodynamics were going on in our country.
...
What has been so troubling to me as a health official is when you are dealing with a moving target, the evidence is evolving and new data becomes available, but you get so many different people with their own sets of data that are not real data. But even in a perfect world, it would not be easy.
...
But what I can say is that, at least to my perception, the emphasis strictly on the science and public health — that is what public-health people should do. I’m not an economist. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is not an economic organization. The surgeon general is not an economist. So we looked at it from a purely public-health standpoint. It was for other people to make broader assessments — people whose positions include but aren’t exclusively about public health. Those people have to make the decisions about the balance between the potential negative consequences of something versus the benefits of something.
...
But when people say, “Fauci shut down the economy” — it wasn’t Fauci. The C.D.C. was the organization that made those recommendations. I happened to be perceived as the personification of the recommendations. But show me a school that I shut down and show me a factory that I shut down. Never. I never did. I gave a public-health recommendation that echoed the C.D.C.’s recommendation, and people made a decision based on that.
Wallace-WellsIt wasn’t until later in March that the alarm was really raised. Was that too late? Could we have raised the alarm earlier? And if so, what would the effect have been, do you think?
FauciWell, first of all, this is one of the things that keeps getting distorted. When I said we don’t need to do anything different right at this moment, please don’t forget that was followed by a semicolon, and then a “however,” and then by, “This could change rapidly, and we better be prepared for that.” I said that every single time. And the people who want to do gotchas on me only show the first part.
Wallace-WellsBut if you go back in time, if you put yourself in February 2020, you’re telling Helen Branswell,7 for instance, that this virus was low-risk and that you didn’t want to stake your credibility on what could be a false alarm. Do you wish you had said then more emphatically that this is a real, urgent threat and that we need to stand up our defenses immediately?
FauciYeah, I think, retrospectively, we certainly should have done that. If you look at what we knew at the time, though — we didn’t know that in January. We were not fully appreciative of the fact that we were dealing with a highly, highly transmissible virus that was clearly spread by ways that were unprecedented and unexperienced by us. And so it fooled us in the beginning and confused us about the need for masks and the need for ventilation and the need for inhibition of social interaction.
Wallace-Wells To be clear: I’m not someone who doesn’t think masks work. I think the science and the data show that they do work, but that they aren’t perfect and that at the population level the effect can be somewhat small. In what was probably our best study, from Bangladesh, in places where mask use tripled, positive tests were reduced by less than 10 percent.
FauciIt’s a good point in general, but I disagree with your premise a bit. From a broad public-health standpoint, at the population level, masks work at the margins — maybe 10 percent. But for an individual who religiously wears a mask, a well-fitted KN95 or N95, it’s not at the margin. It really does work.
...
And that’s the reason it just bothers me a lot — maybe more so than some others — that because of the culture wars you’re talking about, there are people who are not going to make use of an intervention that could have saved their lives.
Wallace-WellsLet’s talk about herd immunity. In 2020, you talked a fair bit about what it would take to get there.
FauciWhat I was trying to tell Donald was that we don’t know what the threshold of herd immunity would be. But I probably could have been more clear that we were talking about a moving target, because we didn’t know how transmissible the virus was.
Wallace-WellsAnd in fact a number of epidemiologists I’ve spoken to have told me that given the nature of this virus, we should have never entertained herd immunity as a possibility, given the way SARS-CoV-2 replicates in the body. What went wrong there?
FauciWell, I don’t think anybody did anything wrong. What went wrong was that the virus did not act the way one would have thought the virus would act. We made an assumption that turned out to be an incorrect assumption — that this was going to act like other viruses.
The classical definition of herd immunity has been completely turned upside down by Covid. And let me go through the steps. Herd immunity is based on two premises: one, that the virus doesn’t change, and two, that when you get infected or vaccinated, the durability of protection is measured in decades, if not a lifetime. With SARS-CoV-2, we thought protection against infection was going to be measured in a long period of time. And we found out — wait a minute, protection against infection, and against severe disease, is measured in months, not decades. No. 2, the virus that you got infected with in January 2020 is very different from the virus that you’re going to get infected with in 2021 and 2022.
...
The vaccines protected well against infection and disease with Alpha, Beta and Delta. Then along comes Omicron. It evades immunity so well that a vaccine doesn’t even protect very well against infection. So with a changing virus and a duration of immunity that doesn’t last — what is herd immunity for that virus?
...
And then we found out something that was stunning. When you looked at the titer of the virus in infected and asymptomatic people and a virus in the nose of symptomatic infected people, it was the same. What the hell is going on here? That was a big surprise. So we were wrong, but we weren’t wrong because we didn’t interpret data in front of us. We never had those data. We did not know early on that 50 to 60 percent of the transmissions would be asymptomatic. That was like, whoa. When I saw those data, I said: This is different. We’re dealing with a disease the likes of which we’ve never seen before.
...
If you look at what I was saying in the months before I stepped down, and what Ashish Jha is saying to this day, it’s that if you are vaccinated and boosted and have available therapy, you are not going to die, no matter how old you are. We were very explicit in saying that. Did people hear that? I don’t know. How loud do you have to say something for people to understand? How often have you got to say it?

The remainder is about lab leaks, communication, data collection, etc.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1030 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 10:18 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1031 of 1110 (910488)
04-25-2023 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1027 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 8:43 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Just put Anthony Fauci at the top of the list.
Fauci was director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and was certainly the most visible health authority during the pandemic, but he doesn't have dictatorial powers, only the power to influence CDC recommendations, some legally binding on state and local health officials and some not.
You never did explain why Biden didn't correct himself. All you did was give a us one of his long speeches where he never mentioned his error.
We've been over this. I agree with you that Biden got it wrong. I couldn't find anything in the news about a correction and expressed the wish that one had been issued. And you're right that in a later speech where he got the facts straight he did not mention that at the CNN Town Hall earlier that year he had spoken incorrectly. Why do you wish to rehash this?
Do you think any of the thousands of people that died from covid at New York nursing homes had any comorbidities?
Undoubtedly, but what point are you trying to make?
Why did they draw their line for mask usage before July?
I think you may be interpreting the graph incorrectly. Here it is again for reference:
The vertical line above the word July represents July 1. The yellow line indicates counties that before July 1 had no mask mandate but that implemented one beginning July 1.
The maroon line indicates counties that prior to July 1 had no mask mandate and after July 1 still had no mask mandate.
Within a couple weeks after July 1 the case rate in counties with a mandate ceased rising and began fluctuating within a narrow range, while the case rate in counties without a mandate just kept rising and rising.
Any time you make a false accusation about what I said, I'm going to ask you to post the quote.
I think you should defend yourself against all false accusations, but in the case of you saying, "Read the Bible and you can find out," it's right there in black and white in your Message 965.
What point is it that you're trying to make. Concerning how societies should set public health policies you said people should read their Bible. What did you mean by that? Do you think the holy books of other religions should also inform public health policies or only Christianity's.
Every time the issue of gun control comes up, there is an increase in the demand for guns. You still haven't told us if you think a person has a right of self defense.
There *is* a thread for that topic. We know you know about it because you earlier threatened to trash that thread, too.
Fear is not your enemy when it is appropriate,...
What are you saying? That fear of guns is appropriate while fear of deadly disease is not?
it is the emotion that kicks in when you have to defend yourself. It is an emotion that can be exploited falsely by businesses to market their products.
You're describing the gun industry to a T. Do you think their profits based on fear are appropriate?
He said things that I've experienced and know to be true.
You think many things that aren't true.
Physicians can change the data by the way they write the cause of death on a death certificate. You don't understand this.
This is so simple that even children under 6 can understand it. What's missing is any support for your claim that physicians are purposefully lying on death certificates on a large scale country-wide.
That's why I continue to press you on this issue of comorbidities and causes of death. I've experienced how drug companies work and they have the money to corrupt government officials so they can sell more of their drugs. They use this to sell their product.
It's a pretty safe bet that there's corruption everywhere out there that we don't know about, but until you have evidence all you've got is a baseless conspiracy theory. Maybe what you're making up is actually true, but you still need evidence.
Do you know that coronavirus has been around for years, it has been associated with common colds.
Yes. And your point is?
And you take being banned from a Chinese-owned TikTok as an indication that he's an anti-vaxxer. You are naive.
He was banned from TikTok for promoting falsehoods about vaccines. From TikTok bans Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Scott Jensen over COVID-19 misinformation:
quote:
(FOX 9) - TikTok removed Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Scott Jensen's account for spreading misinformation on COVID-19 guidelines, a spokesperson confirmed to FOX 9.
But he's a physician and a state legislator with views you agree with, so to you he couldn't possibly be wrong and hang the facts.
So you think the drug companies don't advertise? You don't understand why they do it and are really naive.
You are once again replying to something that only you said.
Next, you are going to tell us that thousands of people didn't die because of Cuomo's policy and that Cuomo is still the governor of New York.
I'll just continue to repeat what is true. Cuomo didn't confine patients in nursing homes. He prevented nursing homes from using covid status in making admission decisions.
You are the one that rushed out and got a covid booster shot.
You sure sound like an anti-vaxxer.
The evidence suggests that the booster is prudent for our age group, especially since we plan to attend a large wedding and then travel over the next couple months.
And you are the one that wants to put sanctions on people that don't get vaccinated.
You are once again responding to something that only you said.
You want to force people to get electric cars when the infrastructure can't support it,...
Again, this is something that only you said.
...people like you throw the anti-science accusation around but can't explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments,...
If you don't want to be perceived as anti-science then stop behaving like you are. Try displaying a measured scientific temperament that gives fair and balanced consideration to evidence instead of going off the deep end with endless false accusations and mischaracterizations and conspiracy theory advocacy.
...and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.
The elevation of the house itself is only 8 feet. On the surface it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase, but I don't know any of the weather related history.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1027 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 8:43 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1033 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 12:22 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1032 of 1110 (910489)
04-25-2023 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1028 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 8:59 PM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman writes:
Percy:
I gave you a link to the info a couple messages ago (Comorbidities and other conditions), but what's important is excess deaths. If Jensen's claim is correct that many who died of covid whould have died anyway of other causes within two or three years then that will show up as a dip in excess deaths into the significantly negative.
Why don't you post the number of people that died with covid and also had comorbidities?
Like I said, I already provided a link to that information. But that information by itself can't tell you whether they would have died anyway within 2 or 3 years. The best information for that would be excess death data, which we'll have to wait for.
What does the evidence say is the number of people that died with covid and had comorbidities?
You have the information. If you think it's relevant then tell us.
Kleinman:
What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?
Percy:
That would be counterintuitive. What would be the mechanism for such an effect? Do you have links to studies showing this? Zacharias Fögen speculates in his paper A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate about a "Fögen effect". One has to wonder about someone who names an effect for himself. There's also Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe by Beny Spira.

But a review (Scientific evidence shows that mask-wearing is effective at limiting community transmission; claims that face masks increase mortality are based on flawed correlation studies) found both studies to be seriously flawed.

But take a look at the papers and see what you think.

Aren't you able to post the data to support your argument?
I don't have an argument. I provided a few links and suggested you look at them to see what you think. Do the papers describe the same issues that you're concerned about.
You posted a graph that shows an increased incidence of covid infection in people wearing masks than in people not wearing masks.
No, it wasn't me. If such a graph was posted here I don't recall it.
You could think that, but you would be wrong. I think I've spent a little more time and effort on the study of healthcare than you have. I didn't do this so that I would hurt people.
You don't *want* to hurt people, I'm sure, but that's what you're doing.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1028 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 8:59 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 12:47 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1037 of 1110 (910497)
04-25-2023 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1030 by Kleinman
04-25-2023 10:18 AM


Re: Dr. Fauci Speaks
Kleinman writes:
Percy:
An Interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci by David Wallace-Wells appears in today's New York Times magazine. It is lengthy. Here are some excerpts. Sorry for the length, I tried to focus on the key issues, but this is much, much shorter than the full interview:
Percy, you completely miss the point.
There was no point to miss. That message was informational with excerpts from an interview with Dr. Fauci that appeared in today's New York Times Magazine. It wasn't addressed to anyone in particular, just the thread in general. I posted it today because it appeared in the paper today. It wasn't a response to anything you or anyone said.
Aside from the fact that Fauci gave extremely bad advice about vaccinations that Joe Biden passed along, advice which any medical student that has studied pathology would understand that vaccines don't stop the possibility of being infected or the possibility that a vaccinated person can spread the infection. This was done by the "top medical expert" in our government.
Repeating mistaken claims over and over doesn't make them any less mistaken.
What you do as a worshipper of Fauci (and "government experts") is label someone who questions the efficacy and safety of a vaccine, an "anti-vaxxer".
I don't understand why anti-vaxxers like you and Jensen try to disguise the fact that you're anti-vaxxers.
This is not only wrong but shuts down the discussion from people that may have something to offer in the situation.
You have not as yet demonstrated any interest in discussion in this thread. Your attitude seems to be, "If I can cast the best insults and make the best distortions then my position will prevail."
Or perhaps you think that the only people that have something to offer are government employees?
You're the only one saying things like this.
Fauci has no idea why so many people don't listen to him. Perhaps it is because he actually doesn't understand the problem he is supposed to be dealing with.
That's what you say about everyone. You rarely make any actual arguments, just cast insults, accusations of various lacks, and make mischaracterizations of what people say or believe. You're a font of falsity.
It doesn't take an expert in psychodynamics to see this. What Fauci does have is the power to allocate grant money, and anyone trying to get that money had better not criticize what Fauci says. You are extremely naive Percy.
Fauci left his position last December, and you're again spouting baseless conspiracy theories.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1030 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 10:18 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 4:02 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 1042 of 1110 (910504)
04-25-2023 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1033 by Kleinman
04-25-2023 12:22 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
The power that Fauci has was used extremely poorly. He misled Biden about vaccines and Fauci never corrected his blunder which any third-year medical student could understand was a blunder.
...
Fauci has not corrected his blunder. And then Fauci is confused by the psychodynamics of a large part of the population.
Repeating mistaken information over and over doesn't make it any less mistaken.
If you don't understand the effects of comorbidities on a superimposed respiratory infection, you won't ever understand this. What happened with all the expert advisors that Cuomo had? Didn't any of his expert advisors understand that there might be a problem putting covid patients in with people with comorbidities?
Yes, Kleinman, we know. No one understands anything except you.
You have no evidence that a great many covid deaths were of people with comorbidities who would have died within 2 to 3 years anyway. You'll just have to wait for the data on excess deaths.
Explain why the yellow line is labeled "Counties with a mandate" and that line starts at the same time as the maroon line.
The yellow line represents those counties that adopted a mandate on July 1. The yellow line prior to July 1 is for the exact same counties as after July 1.
And why is the yellow line higher than the maroon line from before July until almost October?
You asked this once already and the answer hasn't changed. There's not enough data in the graph to answer that question, but one possible answer is that they're denser more urban counties where spread is faster.
A question you didn't ask was about the maroon line's sudden peak in the May/June timeframe. There's not enough data to answer that question, either.
But Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With and Without a Mask Mandate — Kansas, June 1–August 23, 2020 | MMWR tells us that as on July 1, 2020, 24 Kansas counties adopted mask mandates and 81 did not. Those 24 counties accounted for 67.3% of the Kansas population, and 6 of them representing 25% of the state's population were metropolitan. This means my surmise that the counties with mask mandates tended to be more urban was correct. The article also stated that counties with mask mandates were also more likely to adopt other measures, such as limits of gatherings and the occupancy limits for restaurants.
WHy don't you read that quote in context? Do you think you can make society generous by writing a law? You are very naive.
Healthcare was the context, not generosity, but if that's why you said it then fine. The question remains, what do you think society's goals should be regarding healthcare?
Why are you so afraid that somebody might say something that counters your naive thinking?
What have you got against staying on topic?
Hasn't anyone explained the sympathetic nervous system to you?
The actual question was that if fear of illness renders drug company profits inappropriate, then doesn't fear of guns render gun industry profits inappropriate?
If you'd like to discuss gun control then you're in the wrong topic.
Sure, I check things out. I've learned that so-called experts don't always get it right.
And yet all you're able to do is cast unsupported aspersions without ever backing them up with actual data.
It would never enter your mind that corrupted people would work to hide the data that reveals their corruption. You are naive.
That's the most common quality of conspiracy theories: unverifiability. For conspiracy theorists, lack of evidence is proof something is true.
Percy:
Yes. And your point is?
Has anyone died with coronavirus and also had comorbidities before the covid episode?
That's not a point, that's a question. Do you have a point?
You still haven't posted his quote. But that's your modus operandi. You post a quote from someone that doesn't say what Scott Jensen said, and that's enough for you.
You're the only one talking about a quote. I did post an excerpt from a Fox News item saying Jensen was banned from TikTok for "spreading misinformation on COVID-19 guidelines."
Are you really that naive that people do things to influence you.
You're still replying to things only you said. You have this strange habit of claiming people believe things they've never said and then asking or commenting about it. You're basically having a conversation with yourself.
Cuomo prevented people from making decisions that could have prevented thousands of deaths no matter how you want to spin it.
There's no evidence for that, either. What we do know is that Cuomo prevented nursing homes from including covid status as a part of making admission decisions, and that he hid the data about nursing home covid deaths. According to New York COVID-19 nursing home scandal - Wikipedia, the Cuomo administration purposefully omitted 9250 elderly covid deaths from a state health department report. I was unable to find how many of those deaths were determined to be due to the Cuomo policy.
You seem to believe that Cuomo's grave misconduct means you can just make up other stuff. But what Cuomo actually did was bad enough all by itself (don't forget the sexual harassment). There's no need to make stuff up.
You hear what you want to hear. You are ripe to get a booster for the booster. Does that make you saved twice over?
Spoken like a true anti-vaxxer.
Haven't you figured out yet that both vaccinated and un-vaccinated people can spread the virus? We should lock everyone up in solitary confinement. That would solve the problem.
...
Don't you know that electric cars will save the planet?
...
Oh, pardon me, I didn't know that bringing up the laws of physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence was misbehaving. I'll have to learn that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals and say, "Everybody knows that" because that is how biologists practice science.
You are still responding to things only you said. I hope you're enjoying the conversation with yourself.
Kleinman:
...and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.
Percy:
The elevation of the house itself is only 8 feet. On the surface it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase, but I don't know any of the weather related history.

It's a typical example of "do as I say, not as I do".
Why don't you quote Obama telling people not to buy beach property? As I said, it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase. It's well known in these parts that Martha's Vineyard will likely suffer severe impacts from climate change, some think sooner rather than later.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 12:22 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1043 by xongsmith, posted 04-25-2023 5:53 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1047 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 7:14 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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