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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 306 of 995 (892674)
03-12-2022 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by PaulK
03-12-2022 12:58 AM


Finland in WW2
I rather doubt that the Finns would have turned to fascist aid without the threat from the Soviet Union, which I remind you was a murderous oppressive tyranny. Finland itself wasn’t fascist.
quote:
Finland participated in the Second World War initially in a defensive war against the Soviet Union, followed by another battle against the Soviet Union acting in concert with Germany and then finally fighting alongside the Allies against Germany.
Source: The opening sentence at Finland in World War II - Wikipedia
I think it was much more that Finland and Germany had a common enemy, rather that Finland being a friend of Germany.
From later in the above citation:
quote:
Defensive arrangements were attempted with Sweden and the United Kingdom, but the political and military situation in the context of the Second World War rendered these efforts fruitless. Finland then turned to Nazi Germany for military aid. As the German offensive against the Soviet Union (Operation Barbarossa) approached, the cooperation between the two countries intensified. German troops arrived in Finland and took up positions, mostly in Lapland, from where they would invade the Soviet Union. The Finnish military took part in the planning for Operation Barbarossa, and prepared to invade the Soviet Union alongside the Germans in the north, and independently in the south.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by PaulK, posted 03-12-2022 12:58 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 901 of 995 (907518)
02-25-2023 12:11 AM


"The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…"
quote:
t is one year after Russia invaded Ukraine and most people in the United States and Europe still think that is when the war started. I speak to Consortium News editor Joe Lauria and our geopolitical analyst Professor Gerald Horne. And we take another look at the Oliver Stone-produced documentary, “Ukraine on Fire,” which tells the truth about how this war really started eight years ago with the U.S.-backed violent coup of Ukraine’s democratically elected president.
‘ON THE GROUND’ SHOW FOR FEBRUARY 24, 2023: The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago… With Joe Lauria and Gerald Horne… Plus Excerpts from ‘Ukraine on Fire’…   | On The Ground
Downloadable audio available at link.
I am NOT taking the position that the Russian invasion is justified, but...
Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 902 by AZPaul3, posted 02-25-2023 4:47 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 903 by Phat, posted 02-25-2023 8:18 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 905 by Percy, posted 02-25-2023 10:54 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 906 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-25-2023 2:43 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 910 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-08-2023 10:06 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 910 of 995 (908153)
03-08-2023 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by Minnemooseus
02-25-2023 12:11 AM


Re: "The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…"
I was trying to put out the perspective of some of those of the leftest persuasion. I was not trying to say that they are right. I do not think they are right.
But I do think their position is that the west (NATO) did take actions to provoke the paranoid Russian leadership. Which does not justify the Russian invasion.
I put out the link to the audio as "something to listen to, if you wish", not as an argument that the position is right.
Another source of similar thinking:
The Selling of the Ukraine War — Alternative Radio
The program blurb:
quote:
February 24 marks the first-year anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Moscow’s action is a clear violation of international law. But it was not unprovoked. The NATO military alliance has expanded its bases right up to Russia’s borders. The U.S. and its NATO allies are sending more and more arms to Ukraine. Last week it was Patriot missiles. This week it’s tanks. What will it be next week? Fighter jets? The steady escalation of weaponry is music to the ears of the military-industrial complex. The longer the war goes on the more their cash registers go ka-ching. The continuation of the war is getting a hard sell from the armchair pundits and retired generals and their corporate media enablers. What will it take to stop the war?
The speaker (Medea Benjamin) bio there:
quote:
Medea Benjamin is a renowned peace activist and social justice advocate. Newsday calls her, “one of America’s most committed and most effective fighters for human rights.” She is co-founder of Global Exchange and CODEPINK. She is the recipient of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Peace Prize from the Fellowship of Reconciliation and the Gandhi Peace Award. She is the author of many books including Inside Iran, Kingdom of the Unjust: Behind the U.S.-Saudi Connection and War in Ukraine: Making Sense of a Senseless War.
See (if you wish) the reviews at the cited page. The current two most recent seems to well state the opposing perspectives:
quote:
Garbage. Why the left in America insists on putting everything in the same box I will never understand. The Ukrainian cause for their own freedom from the Russian Mob state is the progressive cause of our day. Have you ever been to Ukraine? They just want to be left alone. It was Ukrainians that wanted to be a part of Europe, the EU, NATO, not some American plot. Want the war to end? So does everyone – except Putin. Tell the Russians to go home, give back Crimea – invaded and stolen- get out of the Donbas and the puppet fake republics of E UA, and PAY for the destruction and crimes you have committed, Russia! Otherwise, I say we fight with the Ukrainians ALL THE WAY, and give them whatever it takes. I am a life long progressive and liberal with no apologies, but this ‘the West brought this on’ is bullshit. Tell that to the people of Ukraine.
quote:
Thank you Medea for being a voice of reason in the cacophony for war, more war and evermore war. The West, especially the US, was never serious about a peaceful resolution to the Ukrainian civil war – the civil war was a feature not a bug. The Minsk accords, from the West’s perspective, were nothing but a ruse to build up Ukraine for the inevitable Russian attack, as Angela Merkel recently made clear. Now the West is prepared to fight Russia until the last Ukrainian solder is gone. Let me be clear: The Russian invasion of Ukraine was immoral and an unspeakable tragedy for the women and children crushed as a result. However, the West could have peace in Ukraine tomorrow if its unstated goal were not the unconditional surrender and/or destruction of Russia. I think that the rest of the world will soon tire of the US’ myopia and try diplomacy and non-alignment instead, hopefully, before the next fabricated excuse for war gets us all killed.
I'm on the "Garbage" side.
If one wishes to listen to the talk, KTWH-LP is broadcasting and web streaming it tomorrow (Thursday 03-09-23) at 9:00 pm (US central time). It is also available via podcast via link at the Alternative Radio link at the top of this message (the podcast link is Podcast — Alternative Radio).
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-25-2023 12:11 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 911 by Percy, posted 03-09-2023 7:22 AM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 914 of 995 (908303)
03-09-2023 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 911 by Percy
03-09-2023 7:22 AM


Re: "The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…"
Except for a sentence here and there, I could find nothing in your quotes to agree with.​
quote:
Garbage. Why the left in America insists on putting everything in the same box I will never understand. The Ukrainian cause for their own freedom from the Russian Mob state is the progressive cause of our day. Have you ever been to Ukraine? They just want to be left alone. It was Ukrainians that wanted to be a part of Europe, the EU, NATO, not some American plot. Want the war to end? So does everyone – except Putin. Tell the Russians to go home, give back Crimea – invaded and stolen- get out of the Donbas and the puppet fake republics of E UA, and PAY for the destruction and crimes you have committed, Russia! Otherwise, I say we fight with the Ukrainians ALL THE WAY, and give them whatever it takes. I am a life long progressive and liberal with no apologies, but this ‘the West brought this on’ is bullshit. Tell that to the people of Ukraine.
You find little to agree with in that quoted review of the talk???
An earlier (further down page) review:
quote:
I’m a lifelong leftist, woke AF, and a peace advocate. Yet I don’t accept Medea Benjamin’s premise at all that the War in Ukraine is just another sales job by the military-industrial complex. Putin is trying to resurrect the Russian Empire, and he will sacrifice unlimited lives to do it. There must be strong resistance from the West. NATO’s girding up for the invasion was not a “provocation.” It was simply preparing to defend itself and its allies from Putin’s war-mongering. The reality is that we still have dictators ruling much of the world, and we must maintain military strength to deter them from tyranny.
Do you also find little to agree with in that review of the talk?
The reviews are extremely polarized. They are either "totally agree" or "totally disagree".
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 911 by Percy, posted 03-09-2023 7:22 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 915 by Percy, posted 03-10-2023 4:46 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 935 of 995 (910390)
04-22-2023 1:05 AM


Ukraine 2 4 2 podcast
The general discription of the program:
quote:
Ukraine 2 4 2 features interviews with experts, key people on the ground in Ukraine and many others affected, who can give direct and personal accounts of the unfolding of the war in Ukraine, how people of diverse backgrounds and professional skills rally in the fight for freedom and the historical context of Russia's invasion.
Ukraine 242 Podcast
Their homepage: ukraine 242
30 minutes per episode, for your optional listening.
The most recent episode is: Why Invading Ukraine Makes Sense to Russia: Colonialism Vs Multilateral Cooperation - AS I TYPE THIS, NOT YET AVAILABLE AS PODCAST.
quote:
In the wake of Finland's entry into NATO, a second conversation with Finnish political scientist Ryhor Nizhnikau. From the vantage point of Russia's direct neighbor, Nizhnikau is uniquely able to discuss Moscow's approach to international peace and security, and how these have led to their invasion of Ukraine. Nizhnikau discusses lessons learned by the smaller countries in their search for freedom and place in the world. According to him, Finland is seeking an alternative to power grabs and colonial behavior through multilateralism and law at institutions like the United Nations.
Ryhor Nizhnikau is a senior researcher at the Finnish Institute of International Affairs in Helsinki, an independent research institute, funded by the Finnish Parliament. The institute includes around 50 researchers, who address Finnish foreign policy to advise the Finnish government, the European Union, and provide public information for debate. Ryhors areas of expertise are in the area of Russia foreign policy and countries in post-soviet Europe, and the European Union with issues and challenges for Finlands role in the EU. He also focuses on issues of global security, NATO and transatlantic cooperation.
KTWH-LP, Two Harbors, MN broadcasts and webstreams this program at 9:30 pm (US central time) on Saturdays. KTWH 99.5 FM Two Harbors Community Radio
Moose

  
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