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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1756 of 1864 (910240)
04-19-2023 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1755 by Dredge
04-19-2023 7:04 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Interesting that you would quote a man that converted to atheism late in life. Why is anything he has to say relevant?
ABE meant to type Judaism. I want to keep the original in to maintain the context of replies.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1755 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 7:04 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1757 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 9:04 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1757 of 1864 (910241)
04-19-2023 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1756 by Theodoric
04-19-2023 8:11 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Theodorkic writes:
Interesting that you would quote a man that converted to atheism late in life.
Interesting that you have trouble differentiating between fact and fiction ...
"In 1979, Anfinsen converted to Orthodox Judaism, a commitment he retained for the rest of his life"
Nobel Laureate Christian B. Anfinsen on the Existence of GOD - posted by Administrator at 2012 Community

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1756 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2023 8:11 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1758 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2023 9:09 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1759 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2023 9:11 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1762 by dwise1, posted 04-19-2023 10:24 PM Dredge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1758 of 1864 (910242)
04-19-2023 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1757 by Dredge
04-19-2023 9:04 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Oops I misstated meant to type judaism. He converted to judaism at 63

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1757 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 9:04 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1764 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:07 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1759 of 1864 (910243)
04-19-2023 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1757 by Dredge
04-19-2023 9:04 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
My amended comment still stands.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1757 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 9:04 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1760 of 1864 (910244)
04-19-2023 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1753 by AZPaul3
04-19-2023 6:18 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
APauling writes:
We can assign meaning to something that has no meaning.
Proof positive that atheists are worse than just shallow .... they're delusional and stupid.
Atheists say other stupid things, like
"There is no evidence that God exists"
and
"There is no evidence that miracles are real".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1753 by AZPaul3, posted 04-19-2023 6:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1761 by AZPaul3, posted 04-19-2023 9:33 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1761 of 1864 (910245)
04-19-2023 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1760 by Dredge
04-19-2023 9:14 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
"There is no evidence that God exists"
and
"There is no evidence that miracles are real".
Quite correct. About time you came around.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1760 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 9:14 PM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 1762 of 1864 (910246)
04-19-2023 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1757 by Dredge
04-19-2023 9:04 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
From Wikipedia article on Christian B. Anfinsen (my emphasis added):
quote:
In 1979, he married Libby Shulman Ely, with whom he had 4 stepchildren,[5] and converted to Orthodox Judaism. However, Anfinsen wrote in 1987 that "my feelings about religion still very strongly reflect a fifty-year period of orthodox agnosticism." [3][6]
...
3.
  • "The Christian B. Anfinsen Papers: Biographical Overview". National institute of Health. March 12, 2019.
  • "Anfinsen, Christian B. ." Complete Dictionary of Scientific Biography. . Encyclopedia.com.
6.
From reference 6:
quote:
I married Libby Shulman Ely in 1979 and, at the same time, converted to Orthodox Judaism which fitted quite nicely into her backgraoudn and with my interstes in Israel. Although my feelings about religion still very strongly reflect a fifty-year period of orthodox agnosticism, I must say that I do find the history, practice and intensity of Judaism an extremely interesting, philosophical package.
"Orthodox agnosticism". "... extremely interesting, philosophical package."
Zero evidence that he had become a theist. For that matter, his agnosticism would have informed him that no mere mortal is or was ever capable of actually knowing anything about the gods, including HaShem. Since his ties to his new religion were based on its philosophy, then for him "God" would be a philosophical concept, not some "personal God" one would have a personal relationship with *.
Theodoric is still correct: Anfinsen would not support your position. So stop putting words into his mouth; we know where your filthy words have been.
------------------
FOOTNOTE*
In one of five or six books of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy, we learn about computer sex -- actual citation was Excerpts from The Complete Douglas Adams, 'The Lost Chapters of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy':
quote:
Interface - Sex
(The thought of a man to machine interface is repulsive to most devices)
One cannot help but realize how thoroughly disgusting the thought of an intimate personal relationship to a human (especially to a scum sucking/spewing troll such as yourself) would be to any Supreme Being.
PS
Old standard inside Jewish joke:
A synagogue had a staff of three: the rabbi, the cantor, and the custodian (ie, janitor, repairman, etc).
One day, the rabbi kneels and prays: "Adonai, you are so great; compared to you I am nothing, etc etc" (and again and again with the "I am nothing"). Then the cantor kneels with the same prayer. Seeing this, the custodian decides why not, so he kneels and says the same prayer.
Seeing this, the cantor nudges the rabbi with his elbow and says derisively, "Look who thinks he's nothing!"
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1757 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 9:04 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1769 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 6:42 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1763 of 1864 (910254)
04-20-2023 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1754 by Dredge
04-19-2023 6:59 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
In other words. life is meaningless, but let's pretend it isn't.
Well you're halfway there.
Life has no purpose beyond itself. The fact that we exist is purely chance, but because we're conscious beings we are all mostly able to find a sense of purpose and meaning.
As I've shown you, belief in an afterlife can be one of them, but it's a minority one even in those that are believers. Family and friendships top the table.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1754 by Dredge, posted 04-19-2023 6:59 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1765 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:15 AM Tangle has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1764 of 1864 (910261)
04-20-2023 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1758 by Theodoric
04-19-2023 9:09 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
In that case, why would you say it's "interesting" that I quoted a man who converted to Judaism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1758 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2023 9:09 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1765 of 1864 (910262)
04-20-2023 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1763 by Tangle
04-20-2023 1:38 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Sorry, but you're not making an sense to me. if "Life itself is meaningless", as you say, then everything you do in life is meaningless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1763 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2023 1:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1766 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2023 9:59 AM Dredge has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 1766 of 1864 (910264)
04-20-2023 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1765 by Dredge
04-20-2023 9:15 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Dredge writes:
Sorry, but you're not making an sense to me. if "Life itself is meaningless", as you say, then everything you do in life is meaningless.
Well let's have another try.
The first thing - and it's a simple fact that I ask you to accept - I'm an atheist. A hard atheist, that's one that not only doesn't believe that there are god(s) but also believes strongly that there are no gods. Different concepts but don't worry if you don't understand the difference, just accept that I'm as far to the the right of the bell curve as it's possible to be as an atheist.
I'm also not stupid; I have three degrees in radically different disciples, two at Master's level, one from Cambridge University, England.
Ok so far?
I'm also very happy. I'm long time married with kids, a good job that I like (in fact it's my own business), plenty of savings, a nice paid for house in a nice neighbourhood and good friends. I live in a modern western democracy with freedom to do pretty much what I like, free health care and education and a corruption free criminal justice system and I'm still healthy. In fact, I won the lottery of life.
I have meaning in my life - plenty of meaning, life is good, I enjoy life
I'm asking you to accept that - atheist, not stupid, happy with meaning in my life - ok, got it?
So what isn't making sense to you now? Is it because your priest told you that people can't find meaning without god? If so he's wrong isn't he?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1765 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:15 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1767 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 11:55 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1771 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 7:00 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1773 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:00 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1775 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 9:10 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1785 by candle2, posted 04-21-2023 9:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1767 of 1864 (910267)
04-20-2023 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1766 by Tangle
04-20-2023 9:59 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
I'm an atheist. A hard atheist, that's one that not only doesn't believe that there are god(s) but also believes strongly that there are no gods.
Do you actively resist and disrupt religious functions? Do you shout, rant and rave when religion is publicly mentioned? Do you eat Christian babies?
If you answer no to any of these then to be a Truly Hard Atheist™ you still have a way to go.
Good post.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1766 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2023 9:59 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1768 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2023 12:01 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 1770 by Dredge, posted 04-20-2023 6:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1768 of 1864 (910268)
04-20-2023 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1767 by AZPaul3
04-20-2023 11:55 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
Yeh, I did consider adding that my lack of militant atheism doesn't quite put me at the really narrow end of the curve but that seemed a bit picky.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1767 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 11:55 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1769 of 1864 (910285)
04-20-2023 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1762 by dwise1
04-19-2023 10:24 PM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
unwise1 writes:
Zero evidence that he had become a theist.
On the contrary, his words make it obvious that he was a theist:
"We must admit that there exists an incomprehensible power or force with limitless foresight and knowledge that started the whole universe going in the first place.” (Anfinsen, as cited in Margenau and Varghese, ‘Cosmos, Bios, Theos’, 1997, 139).
"I can think of little more to add to my final point having to do with the nature of God and the existence of God. Clearly, an all-powerful, all-knowing entity must exist to explain our existence.” (Anfinsen 1989).
But oddly, despite converting to Orthodox Judaism, it seems he remained non-committal viz-a-viz theological specifics. So one might describe him as an agnostic theist.
Agnostic theism - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1762 by dwise1, posted 04-19-2023 10:24 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1770 of 1864 (910286)
04-20-2023 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1767 by AZPaul3
04-20-2023 11:55 AM


Re: Burning The Candle At Both Ends
APauling666 writes:
Do you actively resist and disrupt religious functions? Do you shout, rant and rave when religion is publicly mentioned? Do you eat Christian babies?
Sadly - and rather disturbingly - your answer to all the above is "Yes".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1767 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 11:55 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1772 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 8:03 PM Dredge has replied

  
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