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Author Topic:   The Trump Post-Presidency and Insurrection
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 228 of 438 (907937)
03-02-2023 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by jar
02-28-2023 7:57 AM


Re: old news
jar writes:
You are "pitiful, pathetic, deplorable, despicable bigoted willfully ignorant, and dishonest." because you think woke has meaning, that progressive should be mocked, that source trumps content.
Why shouldn't progressives be poked fun at? You ridicule people all the time. And why should SOURCE take a back seat to CONTENT?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 02-28-2023 7:57 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Taq, posted 03-02-2023 4:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 246 of 438 (909713)
04-09-2023 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Taq
03-01-2023 10:46 AM


Arguments Against Republicans as Fascists
Here are a few I have read.
Trump is, in my opinion, a Nationalist but clearly not a Socialist.
I Know Fascists; Donald Trump Is No Fascist <---From Atlantic
The Atlantic Magazine:
s Donald Trump a fascist? Several commentators in America, my adoptive country, on both the left and right, have essentially compared “The Donald” to Mussolini, the fascist strongman who destroyed my old country Italy for a time, leaving behind half a million dead and the lingering poison of civil war.
“The brand of fascism was invented and exported by Italians,” Vittorio Foa, a Resistance hero and the father of Italy’s Republican Constitution, used to quip. He was right and, having grown up in the birthplace of fascism and lived through its aftereffects, I am dead sure: Trump is not a fascist. Using the label not only belittles past tragedies and obscures future dangers, but also indicts his supporters, who have real grievances that mainstream politicians ignore at their peril. America should tackle the demons Trump unleashes in 2016, not tar him by association with ideas and tactics he doesn’t even know about.(...)Western democracies learned how to prevent fascists from taking power again. The danger I see in Trump is that nobody yet knows how to oppose his particular brand of populism, in America or Europe.(...)Trump’s fans are too few to march on Washington, but way too many to ignore or mock. They want jobs, schools, safe communities. If you keep your eyes on their needs, and not on Trump’s distorted hall of mirrors, you will not see “fascists” but instead people forgotten by both Democrats and Republicans.

That was an old article from 2016, before the January 6th fiasco. There are more sources, however.
Are Trump Republicans Fascists?
Boston University:
There’s a libertarian strand of American politics, going back to 1776, that is used to interpret January 6 as a moment of positive anti-authoritarianism. If you think about Rosa Parks defying bad law, there’s nothing violent about that. Almost all January 6 insurrectionists—I wouldn’t call [them] fascists, because fascists are people who were involved in the interwar period. But there’s no question that they’re violent anti-democrats who are also violently racist. And the Republican Party is in danger of becoming the party of violence, anti-democracy, and racism. If there is any kind of similarity with the interwar period, it’s that you have conservatives willing to collaborate for political reasons with people who are often violent and racist and antidemocratic.
Personally, I think that a lot of the anger from Republican Populists stems from the fact that the economy is imploding and that they are being marginalized in order to address minority groups that used to be the marginalized ones. So there is some legitimate social unrest in the MAGA group. I do think that the Democrats need to address the concerns of marginalized populists regardless of the fact that many of them are white.
Is Trump a fascist? 8 experts weigh in.
Vox:
So I reached out to the experts I talked to back then. Four of the five replied, and I also got in touch with a few more scholars who have researched fascism to get a broader view.
The responses were, again, unanimous, albeit tinged with much greater concern about Trump’s authoritarian and violent tendencies. No one thinks Trump is a fascist leader, full stop. Jason Stanley, a Yale philosopher and author of How Fascism Works, came closest to that conclusion, saying that “you could call legitimately call Trumpism a fascist social and political movement” and that Trump is “using fascist political tactics,” but that Trump isn’t necessarily leading a fascist government.

|If Trump manages to get out of the trouble he is in now, he will again carry a broad base of disenfranchised populists, but I doubt whether it will be enough of a majority to win.
First, he has to refute the charges brought against him. I think that dredging up Stormy Daniels was a low blow, personally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Taq, posted 03-01-2023 10:46 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Theodoric, posted 04-09-2023 11:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 248 by xongsmith, posted 04-09-2023 12:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 249 by DrJones*, posted 04-09-2023 2:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 251 by Percy, posted 04-09-2023 3:45 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 438 (909757)
04-10-2023 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Percy
04-09-2023 3:45 PM


Re: Arguments Against Republicans as Fascists
Percy writes:
Why is it always the Republicans that have to deal with those uppity blacks? Why don't Democrats ever do anything about them?
I did not mention blacks at all. All I am defending is the notion that populist concerns should not be ignored. If you want to make it a black/white thing, I would only say that populists(many of them white) should NOT have to go to the back of the bus in the name of affirmative action. But I was NOT trying to make populism a black/white issue.
The Populists(a 2015 article)
quote:
That’s the volatile nature of populism: it can ignite reform or reaction, idealism or scapegoating. It flourishes in periods like Watson’s, and like our own, when large numbers of citizens who see themselves as the backbone of America (“producers” then, “the middle class” now) feel that the game is rigged against them. They aren’t the wretched of the earth—Sanders attracts educated urbanites, Trump small-town businessmen. They’re people with a sense of violated ownership, holding a vision of an earlier, better America that has come under threat.
Sometimes I feel this way, though I think I see both sides of the argument.
quote:
Trump takes it to a demagogic extreme. There’s no dirtier word in the lexicon of his stump speech than “politician.” He incites his audiences’ contempt for the very notion of solving problems through political means. China, the Islamic State, immigrants, unemployment, Wall Street: just let him handle it—he’ll build the wall, deport the eleven million, rewrite the Fourteenth Amendment, create the jobs, kill the terrorists. He offers no idea beyond himself, the leader who can reverse the country’s decline by sheer force of personality.
I think that if by some legal means Trump delays his judgement, he could prove to be a force in politics one last time. If our economy does collapse before then, he may be the only one that can pull us out of it,,,,albeit at the cost of damaging nearly every political alliance in existence. Is that Fascist? The question is the same as the one leveled at the German people in the twenties: Would you rather be broke?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Percy, posted 04-09-2023 3:45 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 8:35 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 254 of 438 (909787)
04-11-2023 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Percy
04-11-2023 8:35 AM


Re: Arguments Against Republicans as Fascists
Percy writes:
You appear to be suggesting that fascism is an alternative worth considering if it improves the economy.
No, I wouldnt go that far, though I suspect that the Conservatives seem to understand some of my pet peeves while the Liberals act as if I'm making stuff up. I know how much you all loathe Tucker Carlson, and I also understand your argument that Fox News caters to what its audience wants to hear, but my friend sent me this clip of Carlson describing the upcoming collapse (or demise) of the US Dollar which just so happens to corroborate with what Ive been researching. Meanhile, the Democrats (many of you) act as if though its all made up. I think that "your side" wants to believe that the whole demise of the dollar thing is a Right Wing Conspiracy, and I believe that you are all WRONG. Prove me otherwise.
Short Clip

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Percy, posted 04-11-2023 8:35 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Percy, posted 04-12-2023 8:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 438 (911005)
06-01-2023 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by nwr
06-01-2023 12:16 AM


Re: How to Handle Trump's Incarceration?
Dont get your hopes up He will nearly walk

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by nwr, posted 06-01-2023 12:16 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Theodoric, posted 06-01-2023 8:23 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 264 of 438 (911019)
06-01-2023 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Theodoric
06-01-2023 8:23 AM


Re: How to Handle Trump's Incarceration?
Just a hunch. Of course I'm likely wrong. I don't see him being shut down, however.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Theodoric, posted 06-01-2023 8:23 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 271 of 438 (911093)
06-09-2023 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Percy
06-09-2023 6:45 AM


It Remains To Be Seen How Hard They Can Nail Him
Percy writes:
I'd have more concern for his soul than his finances.
Why do you guys hate Trump so much? What is it about the money being given to the rich guys rather than the planet(or the people) Tax cuts dont help everyone while Green New Deals eventually do. We are nearly broke no matter which way we spend, however.
Being the moderate I am, I don't see Trump being levels worse than old Joe Biden himself. We have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at the Ukraine an a move that the military industrial complex needed. And I'm not against helping Zelensky. I'm just saying that one undisclosed motive was to gear our military industrial complex up into rebuilding our own military stocks.
I would say that we are already in the early stages of World War III.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Percy, posted 06-09-2023 6:45 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Theodoric, posted 06-09-2023 3:11 PM Phat has replied
 Message 280 by Percy, posted 06-09-2023 6:38 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 281 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-09-2023 7:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 282 by DrJones*, posted 06-09-2023 7:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 273 of 438 (911095)
06-09-2023 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Theodoric
06-09-2023 3:11 PM


Re: It Remains To Be Seen How Hard They Can Nail Him
I'm not galloping anywhere. I just cant understand why everyone wants to nail the old guy so bad. Maybe it will all come out in the wash.
What would you do if he somehow skated through all of this and ran for president again? Would you be disgusted with the justice system? Suspicious of a conspiracy?
Seems like for an alleged crook he still has lots of support. The sad thing is that the Republicans have nobody better to run.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Theodoric, posted 06-09-2023 3:11 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by xongsmith, posted 06-09-2023 3:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 275 of 438 (911097)
06-09-2023 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by xongsmith
06-09-2023 3:52 PM


Re: It Remains To Be Seen How Hard They Can Nail Him
One reason that I dont trust you guys is because you are too one-sided. You see politics through rose colored glasses and not through human nature and history.
I wouldn't vote Biden in again, personally. The old guy is liable to lose it entirely.
And the Liberals are too far to the Left. We need moderates like Obama was. Even like Reagan. The extremes in politics are worrisome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by xongsmith, posted 06-09-2023 3:52 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by xongsmith, posted 06-09-2023 4:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 276 of 438 (911098)
06-09-2023 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by xongsmith
06-09-2023 3:52 PM


Re: It Remains To Be Seen How Hard They Can Nail Him

Then maybe you should just shut the fuck up and try to get that Stupid out of your head with more education.
Your education never helped you to understand the threat posed by unregulated AI. This despite being a software guy. Unplug it indeed! Its already too late. (Sorry...off topic)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by xongsmith, posted 06-09-2023 3:52 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 438 (911106)
06-10-2023 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by DrJones*
06-09-2023 7:52 PM


Re: It Remains To Be Seen How Hard They Can Nail Him
What is TDSS?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by DrJones*, posted 06-09-2023 7:52 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by DrJones*, posted 06-10-2023 12:52 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 285 by dwise1, posted 06-10-2023 12:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 438 (911128)
06-11-2023 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by nwr
06-01-2023 12:16 AM


Re: How to Handle Trump's Incarceration?
Percy writes:
I still think asking why we hate Trump was the wrong question, because it implies irrationality and/or emotionality.
A better question is why we think Trump is a seriously flawed person and a bad leader for the country, and there was no need for Phat to ask this question because we've been very explicit and detailed about Trump for years. But this is what Phat does, ask the same question over and over again, no matter that it's been answered many times.
The reason that I re ask many of the same questions is because not only am I unimpressed with the quick answers...I think that many of you can think and go deeper. (Many of you would expect the same from me) Im not pro Trump. I saw the detailed list of chrages against him and I fully agree that he needs to answer those charges. I also think he has tainted any credibility to run again. What I still dont understand, however, is comments such as "Can we take his retirement?"...Democrats think that the government should control our money and I will forever disagree with this.
Government is of by and for the people...ALL of the people...and some of us want a smaller government who has no authority over every dime we own...(as if they always owned it)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 293 of 438 (913333)
10-23-2023 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Percy
10-23-2023 7:50 AM


Re: The Trump Election Interference Indictment
Upon reading that indictment and summation, I can clearly see the case against Trump.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
To the populist conservatives, many of whom I know and many who have and will continue to defend Trump, I can only say to move on. Trump is not the only choice for president.
They would argue that he is what America needs to reclaim its greatness.
I would ask incredulously "Really? Is THAT all you've got?"
Whats sad is that no conservative can think outside that box.
If we have to count on Trump to turn the country towards a better direction than wokeness, we cant count on Trump. He will promote more division.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Percy, posted 10-23-2023 7:50 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-24-2023 12:39 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 296 by Theodoric, posted 10-24-2023 1:12 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 297 by Percy, posted 10-24-2023 5:49 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 298 by Omnivorous, posted 10-25-2023 7:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 438 (914342)
01-11-2024 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Percy
01-04-2024 2:26 PM


Re: The January 6th Inquiry So Far
Percy:
Today's New York Times summarizes the results of the January 6th inquiry so far. The short version: hundreds of prison sentences.
Here's some of the data it provided:
  • Every week, a few more people are arrested.
  • The charged crimes range from trespassing to seditious conspiracy.
  • 1240 people have been arrested.
  • 710 people have pleaded guilty.
  • 210 of those have pleaded guilty to felony offenses.
  • 170 people have been convicted at trial.
  • 2 people have been fully acquitted.
  • 350 cases are still pending.
  • 720 people have been sentenced so far.
  • 450 of those were sentenced to periods of incarceration ranging from a few days to over 20 years.
  • Total indictments might eventually exceed 2000

For the record, I see two things happening with Donald Trump. (DISCLAIMER: I will most definitely NOT vote for him. He is currently off the ballot in my state (Colorado) but I wont EVER vote for him regardless. I have stated before that I am a moderate to conservative Christian but NOT a Republican and NOT pro Trump. Now or ever.)
The two things that I see happening in the future are:
1) Donald Trump will be our next president.
2) Towards the end of his term, he will be revealed to be the AntiChrist.
Matt 24:3-28 writes:
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-let the reader understand- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Donald Trump will make a false peace with Israel and will then stand in the Temple and say that he is God. Fortunately for all of us "normals" he is NOT God nor will he anything more than a god...an antichrist. He is the diametric opposite of Jesus Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Percy, posted 01-04-2024 2:26 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 386 by Taq, posted 02-16-2024 4:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 396 of 438 (915945)
02-20-2024 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Theodoric
02-17-2024 4:57 PM


Re: $355 million
Theo writes:
He could get a bond, but who would guarantee it?
Whats scary is that one name pops to mind that could pay it...Putin. Just another crime
at that point. Though I have no evidence, I suspect that Putin helped Trump in the past and has dirt on him.
They would have to get real slick in order to pull that one off. World War III would be a likely consequence if the Czar helped him.(and assuming he won the election)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2024 4:57 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 4:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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