Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1114 of 1184 (903066)
12-02-2022 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1112 by AZPaul3
12-02-2022 4:27 AM


Re: A Good Guy With a Gun
AZPaul3 writes:
If the pursuer was a cop and the cop was killed, would that be any different? How about an off-duty cop late on the scene?
Yes, exactly, that's another theme of this thread. The protections extended to police result in a sense of empowerment combined with impunity that results in a fair percentage of police departments becoming abusive.
But even police can find themselves embroiled in trouble when they shoot at fleeing suspects, so armed civilians, untrained and unfamiliar with the nuances, are even more likely might to be tempted (in the name of justice and all that is fair) to fire at criminals, not realizing a threat must exist.
I guess it's the irony that gets me. People buy a gun to feel safe, but not only are they less safe physically just by placing a gun in their vicinity, unless they're well versed in the law they're probably less safe legally, depending upon jurisdiction.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1112 by AZPaul3, posted 12-02-2022 4:27 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 1120 of 1184 (905484)
01-28-2023 8:34 AM


Police Shouldn't Patrol Traffic
The recent Tyre Nichols case has brought to the forefront an argument I've made myself in this thread, that police should not be patrolling traffic. The same guy/gal who puts on a gun, a taser, a baton, pepper spray, window punch, handcuffs and body armor (typically around 25 pounds of total gear) so that he's prepared to take down the bad guys should not be the same guy/gal who pulls you over for doing 40 in a 30 zone. I don't want this "armed to the teeth with nerves on razor edge because some monster might be lurking behind the wheel" person approaching my vehicle.
Police responsibility for carrying out wellness checks, traffic stops, security checks (e.g.,while you're away on vacation) should be given to other departments within government (but not within the police department) for providing these and other services. The police should be responsible for crime and crime-related public safety.
If Tyre Nichols had been pulled over by a traffic cop armed only with a camera for taking images of the vehicle, the license plate and the driver and whose training included and emphasized how to back away or even run away when confronted with resistance or danger, then Tyre Nichols would still be with us. The subject of the traffic stop will not be getting away. The real cops now have all the information they need to track him down and arrest him.
That the cops now under arrest for the murder of Tyre Nichols were black has received a lot of attention. This is a behavior pattern I noticed often during my working career. Staff takes on the values and behaviors of the culture they work within, even when it runs against their own values and culture, and the nature of that culture is driven by management. I worked in high tech, and some reading this have probably noticed reports in recent years of high tech companies taking retaliatory measures against employees they deem as having acted against the best interests of the company.
This is not a new phenomena. I was experiencing it as long as 30 years ago. As soon as they deem you a trouble maker they find other problems with your performance that for some reason are not even hinted at in any prior performance review, and in this way they keep trouble makers in line. Those seeking allies to fight a company policy or action will find few takers.
The cops who murdered Tyre Nichols embraced and internalized the values of the culture they worked within. That is not their fault. That is human nature. It's what people do. Their behavior was unusual only in its level of violence. Police departments across the country encourage an "us versus them" mentality, and woe to you if you have an interaction with a cop who has decided you fit in the "them" category. The result is hordes of cops on our streets amped up on terrifying training that makes their primary daily goal to just make it to the end of their shift alive by any means possible. You give them any reason to think that goal at risk and you are toast.
I was once pulled over for having an expired inspection sticker by a recently hired cop at the school entrance while dropping off my son. I did what I always do at the school in order to keep the line moving, which was to let my son out of his car seat, but I also grabbed the stamped inspection extension form I had sitting on the dashboard. I was ordered back into my car with what I considered extreme vehemence and prejudice. I of course obeyed, the drop-off line was completely disrupted while he radioed in his stop before finally coming over to look at my extension form. We live in a quiet rural community and this cop was gone in a few weeks. I don't know if we were too quiet for his liking or if he just annoyed too many people. Either is possible. In any case, we don't need cops like this, aggravated and armed, on school property checking inspection stickers, and it's a poor use of police resources given all their crime-related training.
So let's let cops focus on crime and free them up from all the other responsibilities that for too long they've been overburdened with. We'll all be better off for it.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1121 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2023 9:27 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1122 by ringo, posted 01-28-2023 11:08 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(6)
Message 1123 of 1184 (905492)
01-28-2023 12:09 PM


Liked This Editorial Cartoon
AbE: Click on the "Image Not Found" link and you'll be brought to the editorial cartoon, which apparently the Washington Post has rendered inaccessible from other sites.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 1124 of 1184 (909107)
03-28-2023 11:17 AM


What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
This digital article from the Washington Post graphically illustrates the damage that the high velocity bullets from an AR-15 can do. The shock wave created by the velocity as well as the shattering of the bullet itself causes massive damage to a wide area and creates a huge exit wound. Unless they hit an extremity, most wounds from these bullets are not survivable. Those who do survive are frequently left with permanent debilitating injuries:
THE BLAST EFFECT: This is how bullets from an AR-15 blow the body apart
I hope the Post has made the article freely available.
--Percy
PS: I see the link to the editorial cartoon I previously posted is no longer available. I have future plans to make it possible to upload images that aren't too big to the website so that they don't disappear from posts when the owner moves or removes them.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1125 by Phat, posted 03-28-2023 6:36 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1130 of 1184 (909243)
03-30-2023 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1127 by marc9000
03-29-2023 9:28 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
I think you need to find and give more weight to knowledgable, experienced and authoritative sources.
AbE: The Facebook post linked to by that Politifact article brings you to a page that says, "Sorry, this content isn't available right now."
It mystifies me that you're unable to look at a report supportive of what you'd like to believe true and examine it for accuracy and rationality. Just because something is sympathetic to your beliefs doesn't mean it's reliable or even believable.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1127 by marc9000, posted 03-29-2023 9:28 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1137 by marc9000, posted 03-30-2023 7:48 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1146 of 1184 (909301)
03-31-2023 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Taq
03-30-2023 5:15 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
Taq writes:
If people have anything other than a handgun for home defense, chances are those other guns are either for hunting or for fun.
It bears repeating that guns and ammunition properly stored in separate lockboxes are useless for home defense except in cases of substantial warning.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Taq, posted 03-30-2023 5:15 PM Taq has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1147 of 1184 (909302)
03-31-2023 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1135 by marc9000
03-30-2023 7:34 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
marc9000 writes:
That wasn't the question. 9/11, and countless other possibilities of U.S mainland attacks don't include the U.S. military. The U.S. military isn't present in every day American life. 9/11 was an attack on everyday American life. The U.S. military wasn't present until it was all over.
What are you imagining that a better armed citizenry would have done about 9/11?
Nope, this is the world of a wide open southern border.
How are you defining "wide open southern border"?
Maybe something to do with chemical / biological weapons. It will be a quick surprise, just like 9/11. A disarmed U.S. public could very well make it easier for them.
...
The American military buzzsaw was not present on 9/11. And if Afghanistan has any plans with chemical / biological weapons, they're smart enough to see to it that the U.S. military won't be present until they're done, and probably dead. Suicide attackers are like that.
What are you imagining that a well armed citizenry could do about chemical and biological weapons? Fighting these kinds of surreptitious attacks is more the realm of the CIA and other national security organizations than the military.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by marc9000, posted 03-30-2023 7:34 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1151 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2023 9:27 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1148 of 1184 (909303)
03-31-2023 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1137 by marc9000
03-30-2023 7:48 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
marc9000 writes:
But the link I put up worked! This statement was there;
quote:
This post was flagged as part of Facebook’s efforts to combat false news and misinformation on its News Feed.
That's what it said! Why should I go down a rabbit trail hoping to find something that contradicts it?
The point was that the article communicated a false impression. That post was not "flagged as part of Facebook’s efforts to combat false news and misinformation on its News Feed." Facebook merely says, "Sorry, this content isn't available right now." Anyone who thinks they know why it's unavailable is engaging in speculation. But if the content was actually "false news and misinformation" then I'm glad Facebook isn't making it available.
It mystifies me that you still seem to be in the fantasy land that Facebook and Twitter don't / didn't censor Republican free speech.
I've made no statements on the subject, so it's a mystery why you you think you know my position.
I'm against censorship, but I'm also against the media repeating what they know to be misstatements of fact using the excuse that they're merely reporting what was said or claimed.
You don't think that an armed populace has anything to do with possible tactics of U.S. enemies?
For an invasion? No. An armed citizenry might serve as the foundational basis for a resistance should an invasion prove successful.
Do you think the Afghanistan occupiers current thoughts and plans take NO consideration of an armed, or disarmed U.S. general public?
Why are you imagining an Afghanistan invasion? Do they even have a Navy?
I'm sorry, Marc, but to me you seem way out there. Conspiracy theories seem to have much greater appeal to you than reality.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1137 by marc9000, posted 03-30-2023 7:48 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1153 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2023 10:14 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1161 of 1184 (909390)
04-02-2023 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1151 by marc9000
04-01-2023 9:27 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
marc9000 writes:
I'm not imagining a better armed citizenry. I'm imagining a much worse armed citizenry, one that would have made 9/11 worse, and made planning for it much easier for the terrorists. They had to get in the country and on those planes without knowing who could be armed. They planned it well, an armed citizenry can't prevent all terrorism obviously. But it can be a deterrent in some cases.
I'm still having trouble seeing any sense in this. The terrorists were in the country legally, some of them for quite a while. Those who flew the planes learned how by attending American flight schools. Guns aren't allowed on planes, so they carried box cutters. How did an armed citizenry make 911 better than it could have been?
How are you defining "wide open southern border"?
More illegal immigration, more illegal drugs crossing it than ever before in U.S. history.
I'm still not following your terminology. If "wide open southern border" describes the current situation at the southern border, what words would describe if all security were eliminated?
What are you imagining that a well armed citizenry could do about chemical and biological weapons?
For any ground invaders of the U.S., for introduction of any kind of attack or terrorism, being more unsure about just who is armed is going to be a deterrent for many things they would need to do. LIke move around within U.S. borders, eat, sleep, etc.
You said an armed citizenry would act as a deterrent to chemical and biological weapons, and I asked how. This isn't an answer.
Fighting these kinds of surreptitious attacks is more the realm of the CIA and other national security organizations than the military.
Preventing them yes, dealing with them after they're underway, not so much.
We're still talking about chemical and biological weapons. After the terrorists have released them into the air or water supply, what exactly do you imagine an armed citizenry doing?
You still seem way out there, Marc. Reality wants you back.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1151 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2023 9:27 PM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 1162 of 1184 (909393)
04-02-2023 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1153 by marc9000
04-01-2023 10:14 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
marc9000 writes:
There is an uneven balance between those on the political left versus those on the right, concerning censorship. The left showed clear approval of Trump being banned from Twitter, other conservatives banned from Twitter. Conservatives banned from speaking at college campuses, etc. We never hear much about conservatives attempting to censor liberals. And some of them say really dangerous, stupid things sometimes. Conservatives tend to trust public judgement of what they're hearing better than liberals do.
I'm against efforts by either side to demonize the other. I'm also against censorship from any source, for instance removing Toni Morrison's Beloved from high school libraries, or attempts to influence AP courses to conform to a sanitized view of slavery, or letting anyone influence actions based on claims of finding something offensive, and so forth.
That's exactly what the mainstream media did when they reported that a policeman was beaten to death by a fire extinguisher by Trump supporters.
If the mainstream media knew it was a lie that a policeman was beaten to death with a fire extinguisher then of course that was wrong, but why would they report a lie as being true since obviously if they know it's a lie then others know it's a lie and it will eventually be revealed that they lied? Doesn't make sense. And mainstream media accuracy has a much better record of adherence to truth and accuracy than you do.
A multi-million dollar investigation showed the mainstream media's lie was reported as fact, month after month before, that there was Trump-Russian collusion during the 2016 election.
I am of course against any media, mainstream or otherwise, reporting lies, but these news reports of which you speak are all in the recent past and we probably all still recall them. I know I do, and I do not remember the mainstream media reporting possible Russian/Trump campaign collusion as a fact. They did report a lot of facts, like the Trump Tower meeting with Russians and the many communications between former Russian intelligence officer Konstantin Kilimnik and Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort. But I don't recall them reporting as fact Trump/Russian collusion.
Much more evidence that was a lie, than conservative opinion that the 2020 election was stolen.
The Mueller report said that the strong appearance of collusion was because the goals of the Russians and the Trump campaign were in alignment but that they were only fellow travelers rather than colluders. It also reported likely obstruction of justice offenses by Trump and his campaign that were they pursued would result in additional information coming to light that could impact the conclusions about collusion.
AGREED!! And a resistance could be very important, and save a lot of lives, and possibly save the nation. Much more important than an emotional "do something, anything" to step-by-step weaken the second amendment because of the actions of a tiny percentage of mentally ill people. I'm not the only one who believes news media sensationalism encourages mass shootings much more than the 250 year long availability of guns in the U.S.
The founders would be horrified at the carnage caused by easily available weaponry and immediately seek to amend the second amendment. The very real carnage we're experiencing can not be justified by militia member wet dreams of saving the country from a fantasy foreign invasion.
I don't know, but they have much more U.S. military equipment now than they had when Bin-Laden planned 9/11 from that country. And since Bin-Laden became fish food, it's reasonable to surmise that they probably have more hate for the U.S. now than they did in 2001.
I think terrorism originating from places like Afghanistan, Iran, Syria and so forth, is a very real threat, but not invasion. None of them have significant navies, Afghanistan's possibly being non-existent.
Conspiracy theories go both ways of course. (Trump-Russian collusion?)
Possible Trump campaign collusion with Russia was not a conspiracy theory. It was investigated by Robert Mueller who wrote in The Mueller Report, Volume 1 that there was obstruction of justice that interfered with the investigation's ability to uncover evidence of collusion:
The Mueller Report, Volume 1:
Third, the investigation established that several individuals affiliated with the Trump Campaign lied to the Office, and to Congress, about their interactions with Russian-affiliated individuals and related matters. Those lies materially impaired the investigation of Russian election interference. The Office charged some of those lies as violations of the federal false statements statute. Former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying...etc...
Seems like if a conservative calls attention to something, it's a conspiracy theory, and when a liberal does, he's a "whistleblower".
Conspiratorial thinking does seem to dominate conservative thought. The 2020 election was stolen, Sandy Hook was faked, the Democrats are running a Satanic pedophile ring out of a pizza parlor basement, Nancy Pelosi's husband attacker was actually his gay lover, and so on.
The reasonable approach is to reject conspiratorial thinking no matter its source. Seek out facts and see if they can be fit into a framework of understanding.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1153 by marc9000, posted 04-01-2023 10:14 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1164 by marc9000, posted 04-03-2023 9:13 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 1165 of 1184 (909451)
04-04-2023 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1164 by marc9000
04-03-2023 9:13 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
I'm not going to be your fact checker, Marc. It would be unending and thankless work, not to mention a moving target. Suffice to say that you believe a lot of weird things, especially that the media in general and ABC World News Tonight in particular are the source of much of what's wrong with America.
Did you watch the first 5 minutes of the video I showed above? Gutfeld has pictures and descriptions that he put together in a very concise way, much better than I can, since he has access and staff that I don't have. For me to attempt to do it wouldn't pay much.
No, I didn't watch any of it. From the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
  2. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
Use your words and back them with reliable sources.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1164 by marc9000, posted 04-03-2023 9:13 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1166 by marc9000, posted 04-04-2023 9:05 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(4)
Message 1168 of 1184 (909522)
04-05-2023 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1166 by marc9000
04-04-2023 9:05 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
marc9000 writes:
Of course you didn't - you know all about your perception of Fox News "lies", yet you don't watch it.
The lies of Fox News are reported by legitimate news media. The Washington Post and New York Times report at length across many articles about the lying at Fox News. This Washington Post article, At center of Fox News lawsuit, Sidney Powell and a ‘wackadoodle’ email, reports Tucker Carlson texting privately that "Sidney Powell is lying," yet Fox News didn't relent. The Post goes on to report that despite Carlson continuing to express doubts about Powell that Fox News felt they had to continue promoting her views or they would lose audience:
Washington Post:
Yet executives also were growing concerned about the threat of declining ratings, as viewers who clung to Trump’s account of a stolen election began to gravitate toward smaller rivals, such as Newsmax and One America, that championed those arguments. In internal communications, executives and some prime-time hosts expressed concern that contradicting the election-fraud claims would further alienate those viewers.
That Fox News is a propaganda rather than a news organization is widely known and reported. One doesn't have to watch their channel to be informed about what they're doing.
But you're perfectly within your right to defend Fox News, so why don't you go ahead.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1166 by marc9000, posted 04-04-2023 9:05 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1169 by marc9000, posted 04-05-2023 8:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(4)
Message 1171 of 1184 (909582)
04-06-2023 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1169 by marc9000
04-05-2023 8:17 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
marc9000 writes:
...legitimate news media. The Washington Post and New York Times..
But you're perfectly within your right to defend Fox News, so why don't you go ahead.
I can't right now, I just can't.
Sure you can. You need only explain why the discovery phase of the Dominion proceedings didn't reveal exactly what it looks like, Fox News airing whatever enables it to keep and gain viewers without regard to truth, accuracy, honesty and integrity.
But what I'd like to do, in the future as an obligation I somehow feel to do what I can to slow the eventual demise of this dying forum,...
I've been saying we're dying for years now, but look at it this way. Where's MySpace? Where's Napster?
Where's Digg? Where's AltaVista, WebCrawler, Lycos and Infoseek (search engines)? Nothing lasts forever, but EvC Forum began in 2001 and for now it's still here, having outlasted probably 99% of the other websites that were alive in 2001.
...is what I did in Message 306- to rescue the Biden Presidency thread which you started, from (that time) 8 months worth of crickets. When something happens in the Biden presidency that the supreme beings at the NYT or WAPO somehow miss, I'll make it clear in my own words, with multiple links to confirm it, so that I'll dare not break any forum rules,...
Marc, I'm only reminding you about the Forum Guidelines. I have no enforcement powers here because I'm a participant. I *did* respond to your Message 306. I endorsed finding and punishing wrongdoing. If any of the things Comer said turn out to be true then I hope they investigate and indict, but Comer's recent record on truth and accuracy has been on par with Fox News.
I'm not a Democrat or a Republican or even an independent. I've made no secret that I'm socially liberal and financially conservative, but when it comes to politics I say, "A pox on all their houses." Anyone desiring public office is dubious in my mind, but if they display competent and unbiased judgment they have a good chance of drawing my vote.
But my political neutrality doesn't mean sticking my head in the sand. There are obvious differences between legitimate news media and Fox News. One exchanges lies for ratings, the others don't.
And there are equally obvious differences between the Trump and Biden administrations. One tried to overrun a US election, incited insurrection, turned the Justice Department into his personal legal firm, obstructed justice, shook down foreign governments to stay at his hotels, tried to shake down Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden in exchange for missile approval, was impeached twice, paid money to keep negative information out of the public eye, misstated the values of his properties for profit, lied about his possession of government documents, including secure ones, and made 30573 false or misleading claims over 4 years. The other didn't.
...and I'll MAKE SURE not to do it next April 1st, when forum rules are suspended for a day.
Boy, you sure turn into a sourpuss when a joke goes over your head. My post was just one in a sequence of six consecutive April Fool's Day posts, a couple containing ridiculously over-the-top fake links like Supreme Court Quashes Trump Indictment (actually a link to the history of cricket) and Trump admits it was all a scam. "I lost," he says. (actually a self-referential link).
A) It will be almost completely ignored, like that one was, or B) I'll get called a barrage of vulgar names. It'll be fun!
i think your behavior here has drawn the treatment it deserves.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1169 by marc9000, posted 04-05-2023 8:17 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1173 by marc9000, posted 04-06-2023 8:52 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1172 of 1184 (909592)
04-06-2023 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1169 by marc9000
04-05-2023 8:17 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
Here's a New York Times article about the descent of Fox News into sensationalistic lies: How Fox Chased Its Audience Down the Rabbit Hole. It's sub-headline:
New York Times:
Rupert Murdoch built an empire by giving viewers exactly what they wanted. But what they wanted — election lies and insurrection — put that empire (and the country) in peril.
Pretty much sums it up. Journalism is afforded broad protections against charges like defamation, but they can't cross the line into actual malice. The question at trial will be if it can be deemed actual malice when all Fox News was doing was pursuing viewers. But is pursuit of viewers at any cost, especially to truth and accuracy, still journalism?
If Fox News was not practicing journalism when they reported what their viewers wanted to hear instead of what was true, then they face an existential crisis, both in terms of whether they're truly practicing journalism and whether they will even survive since the sum of the judgments requested by Dominion (voting machines) and Smartmatic (voting software) exceed $4 billion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1169 by marc9000, posted 04-05-2023 8:17 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1174 by marc9000, posted 04-06-2023 8:59 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 1178 of 1184 (909635)
04-07-2023 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1173 by marc9000
04-06-2023 8:52 PM


Re: What Damage an AR-15 Can Do
marc9000 writes:
Sure you can. You need only explain why the discovery phase of the Dominion proceedings didn't reveal exactly what it looks like, Fox News airing whatever enables it to keep and gain viewers without regard to truth, accuracy, honesty and integrity.
I'm not interested in the Dominion circus.
Why not? Discovery revealed that, according to Wikipedia:
Wikipedia:
Internal communications released in February 2023 showed several prominent network hosts and senior executives—including chairman Murdoch and CEO Scott—discussing their knowledge that 2020 presidential election fraud allegations they were reporting were false; the communications showed the network was concerned that not reporting the falsehoods would alienate viewers and cause them to switch to rival conservative networks, impacting corporate profitability.
This is pretty much what the New York Times said, and what anyone reading these Fox News internal communications would think. These aren't conservative or liberal conclusions. They're what any reasonable person would conclude from the facts. There's no liberal conspiracy making up texts and emails. They're what Fox News contributors and management actually said. Whether it passes the very high threshold for defamation won't be known for a while, but it certainly clearly indicates that Fox News places a much higher priority on what their viewers want to hear rather than on what is true. This should concern you to the extent that Fox News is an outlet you pay attention to because of the false things you could be convinced to believe.
Fox News has been on the air since 1996, if this is its first big lawsuit, it's done very well. The NY Times has been sued for its lies countless times for the past 100 years. I'll detail some NY Times history in the next message.
Fox News gets sued, too, but a key question is if you wanted to know the truth about, say, the 2020 election, would you go to Fox News or the New York Times? Whatever your answer, please explain why?
Maybe if you still enforced forum rules evenly like you did back then, it would all be over by now.
There hasn't been a single act of enforcement here since 2020.
Letting the far lefties reign free - letting them insult and troll out conservative posters might be good for the forums health.
And your campaign of grievance is unrelenting. It doesn't matter what people say to you, you carry on a campaign of complaints and insults. You might find a little self reflection helpful.
I'd only like to contribute by not letting the Biden thread sit unused, should help give them yet one more thing to rage about.
And there you go again. In your mind people who don't share your opinions don't discuss, they rage. You can't see the plank in your own eye.
Marc, I'm only reminding you about the Forum Guidelines. I have no enforcement powers here because I'm a participant.
Isn't "reminding" me, a part, however small, of enforcement? Why don't you remind Theodoric?
Why don't you? You have as much power in this thread as me. What do you imagine he did, anyway? What do you think of the propriety of implying someone did something wrong while not saying what it was but just leaving the implication hanging in the air?
I *did* respond to your Message 306.
Very briefly, without responding to much of what it said.
You have a problem with brevity and succinctness? Was my reply so insufficiently long that you feel aggrieved and put upon again? Do you object to what I said about finding and punishing wrongdoing regardless of party affiliation?
And you learned that from the NY Times?
And the Post, but you can find Comer's actions and quotes at any number of news outlets. He's accused the Biden's of being a crime family. I was speaking in general terms, but the bottom line is that if he's right then the Biden's should be held accountable. Yet you're unhappy with that, and you're attacking my claims of neutrality while not explaining how wanting both Trump and Biden (or anyone) held accountable for whatever they did is somehow not neutral.
Not sure if anybody but Fox News allows hardly any Republican to speak, so the public can decide for themselves.
The Post and the Times and all the media are constantly reporting on what McCarthy, McConnell, Greene, Jordan, Scalise, Stefanik, Cruz, Trump, Haley, Paul, Rubio, Pence, Huckabee, Thomas, Alito Romeny, Perry, Kushner and Graham do and say. Apologies for leaving out any important Republicans.
I'm socially liberal and financially conservative,
The two don't go together. Social liberalism requires money.
Of course they go together. I'm for helping the poor and the discriminated against while maintaining a responsible and healthy financial environment.
But my political neutrality...
That's a good one, I love this place!!
There you go casting unsupported aspersions again without an ounce of support. Your incessant attacks on the people you discuss with is why you experience the treatment you express endless grievance about. Try behaving like a human being and see if things don't improve for you.
... doesn't mean sticking my head in the sand. There are obvious differences between legitimate news media and Fox News. One exchanges lies for ratings, the others don't.
You're about to learn something about the NY Times.
The New York Times is one of the finest, if not the finest, news organizations in the world. That doesn't mean they're perfect, but perfection is only an ideal, not a reality. But I again contrast them to Fox News, and also Newsmax and OAN News. The evidence that these outlets worship at the altar of viewership rather than of journalistic standards is clear and obvious. That you don't want to see this is embodied in your disinterest in the Dominion case and all that discovery has revealed about Fox News.
Boy, you sure turn into a sourpuss when a joke goes over your head. My post was just one in a sequence of six consecutive April Fool's Day posts,
I referenced more than just your April 1st messages. I also referenced Message 1123. That one was on January 28th. A picture with NONE of your own words.
You're just looking for things to be aggrieved about. The posting of an editorial cartoon that was a reply to no one and not part of any discussion did not warrant any discussion. What is wrong with you that when rightfully criticized you strike out irrationally?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by marc9000, posted 04-06-2023 8:52 PM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024