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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 829 of 1086 (872624)
02-29-2020 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by GDR
02-28-2020 12:55 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:
Sure,
So we agree that regardless of belief, 'all you need is love.
but if the Christian argument that all love is a result of God loving us is true, then God is anything but redundant.
Given that all you need is love, the argument is not that god is redundant, it's that religion is redundant - including Christianity.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:55 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 830 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 10:49 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 831 of 1086 (872659)
03-01-2020 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by Phat
03-01-2020 10:49 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
Obviously this is true in your mind because in your mind God does not even exist.
It's not about me!!! It's about what your book says. GDR tells us that Jesus tells us love is all you need, therefore relious belief is redundant.
I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable.
That's not an argument, that's just you saying something you want to be true.
Perhaps if God did exist (in your mind) either you or He would have to go, thus avoiding redundancy.
Uh? It's not about me. Please follow the argument.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 10:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 832 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 833 of 1086 (872669)
03-01-2020 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 832 by Phat
03-01-2020 3:16 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
And it's about how people (you, me, GDR) respond to what the book says.
Yes, by ignoring what it says and believing what you want to believe instead.
Otherwise, why bring it up? You cant walk into Faith & Belief and attempt to reduce belief to a verifiable science-based philosophy.
There's nothing scientific or philosophical in pointing out what Jesus says in your book.
If you had wanted this in a Science Forum I never would have commented at all. You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs.
You're more than a little confused - this is not my thread.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(4)
Message 862 of 1086 (897831)
09-13-2022 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 857 by Phat
09-12-2022 2:40 PM


Re: Power Tools
Hey Phat, does free will exist in heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 2:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by Phat, posted 09-13-2022 1:23 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 867 of 1086 (897848)
09-13-2022 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by Phat
09-13-2022 1:23 PM


Re: Power Tools
Phat writes:
Well, according to accepted dogma, Lucifer actualized evil and fought Michael and the good guys so at some point there must have been free will.
It's beyond time you and GDR stopped pretending you speak factually about stuff you're actually clueless about.

Re-read what you've written, it would look embarrassing in a Tolkien novel.
Of course, I'm no expert on Heaven. How would I know what the place is like? Perhaps they get rid of their garbage via black holes...I've only apologetic dogma with which to provide an answer.
Exactly. No-one is an expert on heaven so you just make it up.
But my question was about free will. Does it exist in heaven? Am I free covet my neighbouring angel's ox there?
You see, you grant freewill some sort of totemic importance here which appears to evaporate once you enter the pearly gates. I can't see that paradise includes crime because crime requires a victim and suffering so how come it's necessary to have free will here?
On the other hand, free will does not exist in Hell. I'm more sure of that. (hypothetically, of course)
Double standards perhaps?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Phat, posted 09-13-2022 1:23 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by AZPaul3, posted 09-13-2022 7:00 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(3)
Message 993 of 1086 (908733)
03-20-2023 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 990 by Dredge
03-20-2023 1:53 AM


Dredge writes:
About 93% of sexual-abuse cases in the Catholic Church involve men abusing boys. If it weren't for the sicko queer predators in the clergy, paedophilia in CC wouldn't have gone largely unnoticed.
I have no idea how this more than usually bizarre statement is supposed to help your case. It's certainly true that without 'sicko queer predators in the clergy' these revolting offences wouldn't have happened.
But of course they did. And they did it on a global scale supported by a corrupt institution devoted to promoting its own interests ahead of those of the communities it pretends to protect.
It's not new, it's very old; it's institutionalised and it hasn't changed. For as long as people like you try to downplay the extent of the abuse and corruption it will continue.
“Sexual abuse in the Catholic Church has been reported as far back as the 11th century, when Peter Damian wrote the treatise Liber Gomorrhianus against such abuses and others. In the late 15th century, Katharina von Zimmern and her sister were removed from their abbey to live in their family's house for a while partly because the young girls were molested by priests.[30]
In 1531, Martin Luther claimed that Pope Leo X had vetoed a measure that cardinals should restrict the number of boys they kept for their pleasure, "otherwise it would have been spread throughout the world how openly and shamelessly the Pope and the cardinals in Rome practice sodomy."[31]”
Catholic Church sexual abuse cases - Wikipedia
Here in the Uk we had an independent inquiry which “ examines the extent of institutional failings by the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales to protect children from sexual abuse and examines the Church’s current safeguarding regime. It draws on evidence from the Inquiry’s three case studies on Ampleforth and Downside Abbeys and their respective schools, Ealing Abbey and St Benedict’s School, and the Archdiocese of Birmingham.”
The Vatican refused to help. Nothing has changed.
The Holy See
In 2018 and 2019, the Inquiry asked the Apostolic Nuncio (the Holy See’s ambassador to the United Kingdom) and the Holy See for information relevant to both the public hearing on Ealing Abbey and St Benedict’s School and the final hearing on the Roman Catholic Church, held in late 2019. The Holy See is a foreign state and the Apostolic Nuncio’s diplomatic status means that neither the institution nor the individual can be compelled to provide a statement to the Inquiry or to give evidence. Despite efforts by the Inquiry, very limited information was forthcoming. Much of the information that was provided was already in the public domain. After several months of correspondence, the Holy See belatedly confirmed it would not provide a witness statement. This response appears to be at odds with the May 2019 Papal pronouncements from Rome in which Pope Francis asserted that there needed to be “concrete and effective actions that involve everyone in the Church” regarding its approach to child sexual abuse.[18]
The Holy See’s limited response on this matter manifestly did not demonstrate a commitment to taking action. Their lack of cooperation passes understanding.”
Just a moment...
I suggest you read it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2023 1:53 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 995 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2023 8:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 998 of 1086 (908741)
03-20-2023 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 995 by Dredge
03-20-2023 8:50 AM


Drudge writes:
Hilarious nonsense. Some people are so childishly gullible.

Martin Luther ... oh yeah, you can believe everything that heretic said about the CC ... LOL.
Ok, let's forget the 16th century, care to comment on the 20th century? Are you Laughing Out Loud about those child sex abuses too?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 995 by Dredge, posted 03-20-2023 8:50 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 1011 of 1086 (908812)
03-20-2023 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1009 by Phat
03-20-2023 3:19 PM


Re: Wiping The Hard Drive
Phat writes:
Except that you cant control how people think, what they believe, or make them do anything. There's the rub.
‘Give me a child till he is seven years old and I will show you the man.’
St Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuit Brotherhood

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1009 by Phat, posted 03-20-2023 3:19 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 1023 of 1086 (908885)
03-22-2023 2:58 PM


So you've finally gone full dick-head fundamentalist nutter. Does it feel nice to be out?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by Dredge, posted 03-26-2023 11:18 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1048 of 1086 (909004)
03-26-2023 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Phat
03-26-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Phat writes:
Their quest is similar [...] Does this make sense?.
Same shit different day.
You just can't conceive of the idea that people that don't live inside you fantasies don't think of things the way you do can you?
None of this makes sense. It's just more of your half-understood pseudo-psychological religious waffle.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 10:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1052 of 1086 (909010)
03-26-2023 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1051 by Phat
03-26-2023 12:01 PM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Phat writes:
The rest of you can go and seek deeper truth all day until Sunday.
wtf are you talking about? There is no such thing as a 'deeper truth' and the only thing I surrender to is a nice scotch.
Did you even start that thinking skills course?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1051 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 12:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 4:05 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1056 by Dredge, posted 03-26-2023 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1055 of 1086 (909015)
03-26-2023 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Phat
03-26-2023 4:05 PM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Phat writes:
I did. I have not had time to finish it.
You gave up weeks ago. You have no intention of finishing it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 4:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1059 of 1086 (909019)
03-26-2023 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1056 by Dredge
03-26-2023 4:44 PM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Dredge writes:
If this life is all there is, there is no 'deeper truth' ... there is only meaninglessness.
Life is its own meaning. If you put aside your fantasies, you might discover it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by Dredge, posted 03-26-2023 4:44 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1064 of 1086 (909026)
03-27-2023 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1063 by Phat
03-27-2023 2:18 AM


Re: Bart Campolo
I see the question, I don't see the answer?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by Phat, posted 03-27-2023 2:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
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