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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 939 of 1086 (907363)
02-21-2023 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 937 by AZPaul3
02-21-2023 7:03 PM


Re: Answering For The Peanut Gallery
One would think that God would let you in based on intangibles in your character, even though you hate religion and even though you diss Jesus. But then again you were raised Catholic IIRC so its understandable.
You were never one of the saved by grace crowd as was I.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by AZPaul3, posted 02-21-2023 7:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 940 by AZPaul3, posted 02-22-2023 2:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 942 of 1086 (907374)
02-22-2023 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 941 by Taq
02-22-2023 10:47 AM


Re: Answering For The Peanut Gallery
Thats reasonable. Keep in mind that I'm not selling religion...I'm just exchanging ideas. I most certainly would not want anyone to have to die in order to discover the truth about reality.
I have my beliefs and will admit to a bias in favor of the Christianity I know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 941 by Taq, posted 02-22-2023 10:47 AM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 944 of 1086 (907377)
02-22-2023 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by Dredge
02-22-2023 12:16 PM


Imagine No Republicans
Imagine (remix by Phat)
Imagine all the people creating their own identity
No Man nor Woman All Non Binary
We will burn down all churches
our minds unshackled and free
With but science to guide us
all inclusive equality
Imagine theres no countries
No top dog to set the rules
Just one united nations
a great starship of fools
Imagine there's no heaven
Jesus just a myth you see
No hell below us
We make our own identity
Imagine all the people
Throwing God Away
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the government will be as one
Imagine no possessions
that you can call your own
No one is any better
No one has their own home
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be free of Republicans
Imagine no possessions
the state owns everything
Money is created freely
with no floor nor ceiling
imagine all the nations
Sharing all we have
You may say im a dreamer
but i gave it all away
the only ones are elitists
who have slightly better pay

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Dredge, posted 02-22-2023 12:16 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 952 by Dredge, posted 03-16-2023 8:36 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 946 of 1086 (907379)
02-22-2023 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by Dredge
02-22-2023 12:16 PM


Geaux Yumons!
I can hardly wait for the day that we all eat bugs together!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Dredge, posted 02-22-2023 12:16 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 958 of 1086 (908622)
03-17-2023 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 957 by Greatest I am
03-17-2023 11:01 AM


GreatestNoMore
To you, Gnostic Christianity is just your way to be special...to imagine yourself an enlightened mystic. You do not know Jesus and the belief that you hold has many flaws. Drop it and admit you are an atheist or dont waste my time with your intellectually handicapped mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 957 by Greatest I am, posted 03-17-2023 11:01 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1009 of 1086 (908795)
03-20-2023 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by AZPaul3
03-20-2023 3:01 PM


Wiping The Hard Drive
Except that you cant control how people think, what they believe, or make them do anything. There's the rub.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2023 3:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1010 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2023 3:41 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1011 by Tangle, posted 03-20-2023 6:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1019 of 1086 (908876)
03-22-2023 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1018 by AZPaul3
03-22-2023 1:30 PM


Re: Wiping The Hard Drive
Silly Rabbit! The Holy Spirit is already here. You and your science have no power nor ability to vanquish Him. Jesus returns later, after humans have mucked up everything. We do owe it to ourselves to give it the old college try, however!
The Weather could determine a lot!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1018 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2023 1:30 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1045 of 1086 (908977)
03-25-2023 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Stile
03-24-2023 9:50 AM


Ya Gotta Have Stile
Stile writes:
Subjective meaning is better than objective meaning.
It's simple to show:
​​Different people want different things - and the secret to having meaning is to identify the things that are important to you and make sure you're making progress on those goals in your life. It can be very difficult to do for some, but it's not a big secret on how to do it.
Because different people want different things, having an "external" or "objective" meaning is, well, useless.
Now for my point of view:
Objective meaning is better than subjective meaning.
Similar people (seekers of truth)want similar things-and the secret to finding/having meaning is to identify the thing(s) that are/ is important to you and to strive to make progress on this goal in your life. It can be very difficult to do for some, but it's not a big secret on how to do it.
(Edited for clarity, continuing in my next post)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by Stile, posted 03-24-2023 9:50 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1046 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 10:45 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1065 by Stile, posted 03-27-2023 8:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1046 of 1086 (909001)
03-26-2023 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by Phat
03-25-2023 11:03 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
I reread what I posted...let me add to and edit that!
This is how I really wanted to say my case, contrasting it with your previous reply regarding subjectivity.
It's simple to show:

Let's take two serious seekers of truth and a quest for knowing God. Both are in church for the first time(s) in their life.
One wants to find God and surrender, the other wants to achieve self actualization and improve himself through knowledge(Gnosis).
Their quest is similar.
The one who wants to know God and is drawn by the Spirit will meet God in church (or in a park, or at home or wherever they happen to be)
The one who wants to achieve self actualization will have feelings of ambivalence and confusion while in a formal church setting. They will question why they are listening to the dogma. They will grow restless and leave the church, convinced that they were mere sheeple and/or blissfully ignorant. They will search elsewhere...not for "God" particularly but for self actualization and contentment. Does this make sense?
Stile writes:
It doesn't even matter what the external meaning is... as soon as it's one single thing... this just isn't going to work for everyone because people are different. And, it's only going to work for those who's subjective meaning happens to coincide with it anyway... which, again, means the external meaning is useless.
In other words, everybody will find what they really want. For some, its objective. For others, its subjective.

​Everyone is looking for greater truth. For the science minded, it is more exciting to ask more questions and reject pat (or easy) answers. For those of us who know ourselves and simply want stability and guidance in life, church can be welcoming and safe. We dont want to find out that there is no God, especially after we believed that we had met Him. The science based mind, by contrast, is taught to set aside prior conclusions and move on.
For them, there is always more to be discovered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by Phat, posted 03-25-2023 11:03 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1048 by Tangle, posted 03-26-2023 11:25 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1049 by nwr, posted 03-26-2023 11:44 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1050 by Theodoric, posted 03-26-2023 11:51 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1066 by Stile, posted 03-27-2023 8:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1051 of 1086 (909008)
03-26-2023 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by nwr
03-26-2023 11:44 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
If you consider yourself to be a libertarian, why would you want to surrender?
What do my politics have to do with my spirituality? I want to surrender to a Higher power. I dont want to surrender to common consensus. The people do not know the answer.
If you are a serious seeker of truth, why aren't you more skeptical of what you hear and read, including what you hear in church? Why aren't you looking for better evidence?
There is no better evidence. Unlike some, I do not throw God away. I have found truth. my challenge is found in my ability and willingness to better live up to it.
The rest of you can go and seek deeper truth all day until Sunday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by nwr, posted 03-26-2023 11:44 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1052 by Tangle, posted 03-26-2023 1:06 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1053 by nwr, posted 03-26-2023 1:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1054 of 1086 (909014)
03-26-2023 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1052 by Tangle
03-26-2023 1:06 PM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Did you even start that thinking skills course?
I did. I have not had time to finish it.
the only thing I surrender to is a nice scotch.
Cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1052 by Tangle, posted 03-26-2023 1:06 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1055 by Tangle, posted 03-26-2023 4:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1063 of 1086 (909025)
03-27-2023 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Tangle
11-04-2019 5:45 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
OK> I thought of this question you once posed and found a quick answer which you will agree with.
Cosmic Skeptic Short

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2019 5:45 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by Tangle, posted 03-27-2023 2:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1073 of 1086 (909039)
03-27-2023 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1066 by Stile
03-27-2023 8:49 AM


New Data
This is an interesting and thoughtful reply from you, Stile. I wanted to respond back with further thoughts of my own, but in order to do so, allow me a bit of poetic license on subjective meanings of words used by you in this exchange...perhaps if nothing else but to inspire further reflection.
Stile writes:
... if you're attempting to say that something from God is objective, that something has to not be influenced by God's feelings or opinions and be external to God as well.
If you want to claim that nothing is external to God... then nothing from God is objective. It's all subjective - according to God.
Something that's subjective, but from God doesn't turn into "objective" for us... it's simply external to us. But it's still subjective - according to God.
Historically, does a King have subjects or do they have objects? Are the people subjective to a King or are they objective?
Stile writes:
Many people couldn't care less about what you and I described as "greater truth."
Perhaps in granting humanity free will, God gave us the ability to be objective. We became free to determine our own objectives...even at the risk (to God) of rejecting Him. Historic dogma(apologetics) would say that God is not so much threatened by our rejection except for His concern of our destiny. Critics would ask why God cant simply make everyones destiny secure regardless of their freely given objective choice. I have no easy answer for that one yet.
Stile writes:
I actually find God more exciting than science. What's more exciting than magic and mystery?
And yet you state that you *know* that God does not exist, whereas I would state that I *know* that He does. Both of us find Him exciting, though I would qualify that by saying that occasionally I find Him to be a bit scary and difficult to know since I believe that His standards are nearly impossible for me to accept (unless He makes a way for me).
Granted He has magic in that all things are possible with Him...just as all things would theoretically be possible with magic. And both of us can definitely agree on the mystery of it all. For you, there is no rational connection. For me, there must be a rational connection...or even an irrational one if that is how it is meant to be. I wont place all of my eggs in the science basket due to the belief that science alone wont solve all human problems. In fact, science might end up being so "logical" as to eliminate humans from future equations regarding purpose and destiny. AI could conceivably replace us.
Stile writes:
Careful - your arrogance is showing.
Only because I have a personal stake in the results of this experiment. Im not ready to casually toss away data in order to find more (as an easy replacement).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1066 by Stile, posted 03-27-2023 8:49 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1075 by Stile, posted 03-27-2023 11:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 1078 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2023 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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