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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2852
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1036 of 1086 (908939)
03-24-2023 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1033 by AZPaul3
03-23-2023 7:41 PM


APauling666 writes:
So what next? There are no controls? No limits? You can descend into meaningless debauchery and proselytizing evil religions because you can't balance your meaningless evil nature?
Since life is meaningless (according to atheism), it doesn't matter if you do good things or evil things ... since good and evil are as meaningless as each other. Life is as meaningless as non-life. Love is meaningless as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by AZPaul3, posted 03-23-2023 7:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1039 by AZPaul3, posted 03-24-2023 3:03 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2852
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1037 of 1086 (908940)
03-24-2023 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1033 by AZPaul3
03-23-2023 7:41 PM


APaul666 writes:
So what does it mean for your meaningless life to be meaningless?
That's for you to answer ... you're a disciple of Meaninglessness, not me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by AZPaul3, posted 03-23-2023 7:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1040 by AZPaul3, posted 03-24-2023 3:08 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8614
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1038 of 1086 (908942)
03-24-2023 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1035 by Dredge
03-24-2023 1:29 AM


Of course - since the universe is utterly meaningless too.
Then you admit that, even you the cracker-munching creationist, acknowledge that life is a meaningless emergent property of matter and exists for no other reason than that it can.
You are learning, Dredge. Now ditch the ghost and revel in the reality of life's true nature.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1035 by Dredge, posted 03-24-2023 1:29 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1057 by Dredge, posted 03-26-2023 4:49 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8614
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1039 of 1086 (908943)
03-24-2023 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1036 by Dredge
03-24-2023 1:36 AM


Good, evil, love, hate are all human conceptions. They don't exist apart from the human imagination. They are nothing and as such, you are correct, their being is meaningless to the operations of this universe.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by Dredge, posted 03-24-2023 1:36 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by Dredge, posted 03-24-2023 4:37 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8614
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1040 of 1086 (908944)
03-24-2023 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1037 by Dredge
03-24-2023 1:40 AM


That's for you to answer ...
Dredge, Msg 1037:
Life is as meaningless as non-life. Love is meaningless as well.
You already answered. You admit it's all meaningless. So what's the problem?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by Dredge, posted 03-24-2023 1:40 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2852
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1041 of 1086 (908947)
03-24-2023 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1039 by AZPaul3
03-24-2023 3:03 AM


You seem to think the universe has meaning. If your atheism is true, nothing has meaning - including the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1039 by AZPaul3, posted 03-24-2023 3:03 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1042 by Stile, posted 03-24-2023 9:50 AM Dredge has replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 159 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 1042 of 1086 (908953)
03-24-2023 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1041 by Dredge
03-24-2023 4:37 AM


Dredge writes:
If your atheism is true, nothing has meaning - including the universe.
All this says is that you don't know how meaning works.
Subjective meaning is better than objective meaning.
It's simple to show:
Let's take two highly skilled professional baseball players.
One wants to play baseball, the other wants to be a dentist.
Their skill, however, is exactly the same... both just as reliable, productive and an asset to the team their on.
The one who wants to play baseball, and is playing baseball, will have high feelings of happiness and satisfaction with their life.
The one who wants to be a dentist, and is playing baseball, will have feelings of frustration and discontentment with their life.
Different people want different things - and the secret to having meaning is to identify the things that are important to you and make sure you're making progress on those goals in your life. It can be very difficult to do for some, but it's not a big secret on how to do it.
Because different people want different things, having an "external" or "objective" meaning is, well, useless.
If the "time independent" meaning is to be a baseball player - the one who still want to be a dentist will still feel frustrated.
It doesn't even matter what the external meaning is... as soon as it's one single thing... this just isn't going to work for everyone because people are different. And, it's only going to work for those who's subjective meaning happens to coincide with it anyway... which, again, means the external meaning is useless.
Subjective meaning, however, can work for everyone - identify what's important to you and make sure your life includes making progress on those goals.
And - bam - your life has meaning that's greater than any possible external meaning that could exist.
Subjective meaning is better than objective meaning.
Simply because that's how meaning works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1041 by Dredge, posted 03-24-2023 4:37 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1043 by Dredge, posted 03-25-2023 9:16 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1044 by Dredge, posted 03-25-2023 9:18 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1045 by Phat, posted 03-25-2023 11:03 AM Stile has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2852
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1043 of 1086 (908974)
03-25-2023 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Stile
03-24-2023 9:50 AM


Sorry, but your post is completely devoid of merit. Fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by Stile, posted 03-24-2023 9:50 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2852
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1044 of 1086 (908975)
03-25-2023 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Stile
03-24-2023 9:50 AM


Stale writes:
Subjective meaning is better than objective meaning.
Simply because that's how meaning works.
Meaningless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by Stile, posted 03-24-2023 9:50 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1045 of 1086 (908977)
03-25-2023 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Stile
03-24-2023 9:50 AM


Ya Gotta Have Stile
Stile writes:
Subjective meaning is better than objective meaning.
It's simple to show:
​​Different people want different things - and the secret to having meaning is to identify the things that are important to you and make sure you're making progress on those goals in your life. It can be very difficult to do for some, but it's not a big secret on how to do it.
Because different people want different things, having an "external" or "objective" meaning is, well, useless.
Now for my point of view:
Objective meaning is better than subjective meaning.
Similar people (seekers of truth)want similar things-and the secret to finding/having meaning is to identify the thing(s) that are/ is important to you and to strive to make progress on this goal in your life. It can be very difficult to do for some, but it's not a big secret on how to do it.
(Edited for clarity, continuing in my next post)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by Stile, posted 03-24-2023 9:50 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1046 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 10:45 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1065 by Stile, posted 03-27-2023 8:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1046 of 1086 (909001)
03-26-2023 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by Phat
03-25-2023 11:03 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
I reread what I posted...let me add to and edit that!
This is how I really wanted to say my case, contrasting it with your previous reply regarding subjectivity.
It's simple to show:

Let's take two serious seekers of truth and a quest for knowing God. Both are in church for the first time(s) in their life.
One wants to find God and surrender, the other wants to achieve self actualization and improve himself through knowledge(Gnosis).
Their quest is similar.
The one who wants to know God and is drawn by the Spirit will meet God in church (or in a park, or at home or wherever they happen to be)
The one who wants to achieve self actualization will have feelings of ambivalence and confusion while in a formal church setting. They will question why they are listening to the dogma. They will grow restless and leave the church, convinced that they were mere sheeple and/or blissfully ignorant. They will search elsewhere...not for "God" particularly but for self actualization and contentment. Does this make sense?
Stile writes:
It doesn't even matter what the external meaning is... as soon as it's one single thing... this just isn't going to work for everyone because people are different. And, it's only going to work for those who's subjective meaning happens to coincide with it anyway... which, again, means the external meaning is useless.
In other words, everybody will find what they really want. For some, its objective. For others, its subjective.

​Everyone is looking for greater truth. For the science minded, it is more exciting to ask more questions and reject pat (or easy) answers. For those of us who know ourselves and simply want stability and guidance in life, church can be welcoming and safe. We dont want to find out that there is no God, especially after we believed that we had met Him. The science based mind, by contrast, is taught to set aside prior conclusions and move on.
For them, there is always more to be discovered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by Phat, posted 03-25-2023 11:03 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1048 by Tangle, posted 03-26-2023 11:25 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1049 by nwr, posted 03-26-2023 11:44 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1050 by Theodoric, posted 03-26-2023 11:51 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1066 by Stile, posted 03-27-2023 8:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2852
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1047 of 1086 (909002)
03-26-2023 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1023 by Tangle
03-22-2023 2:58 PM


Tangles writes:
So you've finally gone full dick-head fundamentalist nutter.
Thank you. Sounds like I'm on the right track.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2023 2:58 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 1048 of 1086 (909004)
03-26-2023 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Phat
03-26-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Phat writes:
Their quest is similar [...] Does this make sense?.
Same shit different day.
You just can't conceive of the idea that people that don't live inside you fantasies don't think of things the way you do can you?
None of this makes sense. It's just more of your half-understood pseudo-psychological religious waffle.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 10:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 1049 of 1086 (909006)
03-26-2023 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Phat
03-26-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
Does this make sense?
No, it doesn't.
One wants to find God and surrender, ...
If you consider yourself to be a libertarian, why would you want to surrender?
If you are a serious seeker of truth, why aren't you more skeptical of what you hear and read, including what you hear in church? Why aren't you looking for better evidence?

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity <-- <--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 10:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 12:01 PM nwr has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9368
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1050 of 1086 (909007)
03-26-2023 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Phat
03-26-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Ya Gotta Have Stile
More word salad.
Wash, rinse, repeat.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Phat, posted 03-26-2023 10:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
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