Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(3)
Message 631 of 1104 (908909)
03-23-2023 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by Kleinman
03-22-2023 7:19 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
How does a germ cell line get 203,000 retroviral infections?
The same way it is happening in koalas.
I think you and the research you are quoting are mistaking host genetic sequences that control the transcription of DNA with viral DNA.
Baloney. These are viral insertions in the koala genome, and they match the currently active exogenous retrovirus. More importantly, there are pockets of koalas that have not been exposed to the virus and they lack these insertions in their genome. These insertions are also found in the genomes of germline cells, and they are passed on vertically as I already showed.
Superficially the sequences may appear the same but the belief that our germ cell line has been infected 203,000 times by retroviruses ignores the fact of what these viruses do to their host.
You are the only one ignoring evidence here. There is evidence that there are insertions into the koala genome from a currently active exogenous retrovirus. These are found in the germline cells. The insertions are vertically inherited. There are even koala populations that do not have these insertions which demonstrates they were not a part of the host genome before the retrovirus began infecting koala populations.
quote:
Until now, we have never had the opportunity of observing or studying such genomic colonization as it takes place. Enter the koala - an Australian icon and a potentially endangered species. A recent paper in Nature by Tarlington and colleagues [1] provides evidence that koalas are in the midst of a germline invasion by the koala retrovirus (KoRV). They show that KoRV is present, at variable copy number, in the germline of all koalas found in Queensland, but that animals from some areas of southern Australia lack the provirus. Most notably, KoRV appears completely absent from koalas on Kangaroo Island off the coast of South Australia.
Koala retrovirus: a genome invasion in real time - PMC
The highly variable placement of endogenous copies of the virus is also a big piece of evidence, demonstrating that the insertions are nowhere close to reaching fixation. This is all evidence of a very recent invasion of the koala genome.
You are being illogical when you claim that it can happen 203,000 times without driving the lineage to extinction.
The only one being illogical is you. You are the one ignoring mountains of evidence demonstrating an ongoing retroviral germline invasion of a mammalian genome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Kleinman, posted 03-22-2023 7:19 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by Kleinman, posted 03-23-2023 1:29 PM Taq has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 632 of 1104 (908915)
03-23-2023 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Taq
03-23-2023 12:47 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman:
How does a germ cell line get 203,000 retroviral infections?
Taq:
The same way it is happening in koalas.

The same way that the koala population may go extinct? This is a fact.
Kleinman:
I think you and the research you are quoting are mistaking host genetic sequences that control the transcription of DNA with viral DNA.
Taq:
Baloney. These are viral insertions in the koala genome, and they match the currently active exogenous retrovirus. More importantly, there are pockets of koalas that have not been exposed to the virus and they lack these insertions in their genome. These insertions are also found in the genomes of germline cells, and they are passed on vertically as I already showed.

Why would you claim that koalas don't have their own DNA that controls transcription? And just because a single viral genome can be inserted into the host genome you can conclude that 203,000 viral genomes can be inserted. These viruses survive by killing their host cells. This is a fact. Why won't you accept the fact that koalas are threatened by extinction from this virus, regardless of whether the insertion of the viral genome or not? And now you claim it happens 203,000 times. You are illogical.
Kleinman:
Superficially the sequences may appear the same but the belief that our germ cell line has been infected 203,000 times by retroviruses ignores the fact of what these viruses do to their host.
Taq:
You are the only one ignoring evidence here. There is evidence that there are insertions into the koala genome from a currently active exogenous retrovirus. These are found in the germline cells. The insertions are vertically inherited. There are even koala populations that do not have these insertions which demonstrates they were not a part of the host genome before the retrovirus began infecting koala populations.

I'm not ignoring anything. Retroviruses survive by killing the host cell they infect but you refuse to accept this fact. And then you claim that 203,000 retroviruses can infect a germ cell line without killing that lineage just because a virus that is driving a koala population toward extinction is being inserted into the genome. You make no sense, just like you have never made sense of descent with modification.
Kleinman:
You are being illogical when you claim that it can happen 203,000 times without driving the lineage to extinction.
Taq:
The only one being illogical is you. You are the one ignoring mountains of evidence demonstrating an ongoing retroviral germline invasion of a mammalian genome.

You fail to recognize one little fact. A single retroviral infection can drive a population to extinction, your own reference acknowledges this and HIV kills people with this disease if untreated. This is a fact. You surprise me with your illogic considering you claim to be a virologist. You claim a lineage can get 203,000 retroviral infections and the lineage does fine when empirical evidence shows that a single retroviral infection can kill that lineage. You see only what you want to see which is not the scientific method. You revealed the same kind of logic when we discussed recombination. You want to extrapolate the results of the Desai and Peabody experiments to all examples of evolution even though these experiments are done in controlled environments. Just because a virus can be inserted one time into a genome, you want to claim it can be done 203,000 times without doing harm to that lineage. You need to think more clearly about the claims you are making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Taq, posted 03-23-2023 12:47 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by Taq, posted 03-23-2023 3:52 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 633 of 1104 (908924)
03-23-2023 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by Kleinman
03-23-2023 1:29 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
The same way that the koala population may go extinct?
Your claim is that there shouldn't even be new koala offspring. There is.
Why would you claim that koalas don't have their own DNA that controls transcription?
That's completely irrelevant. We are talking about the viral genomes that have been inserted into the koala genome.
Why won't you accept the fact that koalas are threatened by extinction from this virus, regardless of whether the insertion of the viral genome or not?
Why won't you accept that these viral sequences exist in germline cells and are being passed down vertically without birth defects?
And then you claim that 203,000 retroviruses can infect a germ cell line without killing that lineage just because a virus that is driving a koala population toward extinction is being inserted into the genome.
You are claiming no offspring should even be possible. That is what I am addressing. Admit that you are wrong and we can move on to the next dumb statement you are making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by Kleinman, posted 03-23-2023 1:29 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Kleinman, posted 03-24-2023 9:08 AM Taq has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 634 of 1104 (908952)
03-24-2023 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 633 by Taq
03-23-2023 3:52 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman:
The same way that the koala population may go extinct?
Taq:
Your claim is that there shouldn't even be new koala offspring. There is.

I realize that you are trying to support an irrational idea but this single retrovirus is killing koalas and MAY cause the extinction of that lineage. Why won't you acknowledge the lethality of retroviruses and that insertion of the virus into the host genome is only one part of the viruses' life cycle? And then you extrapolate this single event and claim that it can happen 203,000 times and the germ cell line does just fine. You aren't making sense.
Kleinman:
Why would you claim that koalas don't have their own DNA that controls transcription?
Taq:
That's completely irrelevant. We are talking about the viral genomes that have been inserted into the koala genome.

You are talking about a single virus with koalas and then trying to extrapolate that result to 203,000 viral infections of a germ cell lineage. Why do you refuse to see what is happening to the koala population from a single retroviral infection? Then try to consider the consequences of 203,000 infections to a lineage. What do you think happens to koala offspring born with the virus in every one of their cells but manage to survive? Don't you think it is possible for that viral infection to reactivate in some of those cells? And then what happens to the offspring?
Kleinman:
Why won't you accept the fact that koalas are threatened by extinction from this virus, regardless of whether the insertion of the viral genome or not?
Taq:
Why won't you accept that these viral sequences exist in germline cells and are being passed down vertically without birth defects?

Are you having that much difficulty reading my posts? I've said that viral sequences can be inserted into host cells such as herpes zoster and HIV. But the virus is not deactivated when it does this as indicated by the occurrence of shingles and the fact that HIV can not be cured. And if the virus inserts into a germ cell, the offspring formed by that germ cell will have that viral disease. You want to claim that this can happen 203,000 times. That's why it surprises me that someone that claims to be a virologist would make such an assertion.
Kleinman:
And then you claim that 203,000 retroviruses can infect a germ cell line without killing that lineage just because a virus that is driving a koala population toward extinction is being inserted into the genome.
Taq:
You are claiming no offspring should even be possible. That is what I am addressing. Admit that you are wrong and we can move on to the next dumb statement you are making.

Try reading my post again, because that is not what I'm saying. It is clear that you will not acknowledge what the life cycle of a virus is and that killing the host cell is part of that life cycle. Insertion of the virus genome into the host genome is only part of that life cycle and the reactivation of the virus and replication followed by the killing of the host cell is part of that life cycle. Now you want to claim that it can happen 203,000 times. You do not make sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by Taq, posted 03-23-2023 3:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Taq, posted 03-24-2023 10:48 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 635 of 1104 (908955)
03-24-2023 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by Kleinman
03-24-2023 9:08 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
And if the virus inserts into a germ cell, the offspring formed by that germ cell will have that viral disease.
You claimed that koala embryos could never even be formed, or that they would be born with birth defects. Neither is occurring. Admit your error and we can move on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Kleinman, posted 03-24-2023 9:08 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Kleinman, posted 03-24-2023 12:01 PM Taq has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 636 of 1104 (908957)
03-24-2023 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Taq
03-24-2023 10:48 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman:
And if the virus inserts into a germ cell, the offspring formed by that germ cell will have that viral disease.
Taq:
You claimed that koala embryos could never even be formed, or that they would be born with birth defects. Neither is occurring. Admit your error and we can move on.

Don't be silly. But I don't blame you for wanting to bail out from this discussion. It isn't difficult to explain why your concepts of nested hierarchies and retroviruses are nonsensical. We all look forward to your publication of a mathematical explanation of how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Taq, posted 03-24-2023 10:48 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Taq, posted 03-27-2023 3:38 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 637 of 1104 (909005)
03-26-2023 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by AZPaul3
03-19-2023 12:34 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
APauling666 writes:
show us one of these majik biological lineages that violates the nested hierarchy.
I already have ... and many more than just one ... most of the novel Phyla that appeared in the Cambrian explosion. A Phylum that appears in the fossil record with no evolutionary history isn't part of a nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2023 12:34 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Kleinman, posted 03-26-2023 1:17 PM Dredge has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 638 of 1104 (909011)
03-26-2023 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by Dredge
03-26-2023 11:36 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
AZPaul3:
show us one of these majik biological lineages that violates the nested hierarchy.
Dredge:
I already have ... and many more than just one ... most of the novel Phyla that appeared in the Cambrian explosion. A Phylum that appears in the fossil record with no evolutionary history isn't part of a nested hierarchy.

Dredge, don't you know that AZPaul3 is an atheist? AZPaul3 says that atheists don't believe in anything. Actually, AZPaul3 will believe anything that fits his belief system, and his belief system is quite nonsensical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Dredge, posted 03-26-2023 11:36 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 8:45 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 639 of 1104 (909029)
03-27-2023 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 638 by Kleinman
03-26-2023 1:17 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Dredge, don't you know that AZPaul3 is an atheist? AZPaul3 says that atheists don't believe in anything. Actually, AZPaul3 will believe anything that fits his belief system
I understand that, as an atheist, it's very easy for APauling to believe the Darwinian bedtime story ... despite what the fossil record says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Kleinman, posted 03-26-2023 1:17 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by Kleinman, posted 03-27-2023 9:29 AM Dredge has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 640 of 1104 (909035)
03-27-2023 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by Dredge
03-27-2023 8:45 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman:
Dredge, don't you know that AZPaul3 is an atheist? AZPaul3 says that atheists don't believe in anything. Actually, AZPaul3 will believe anything that fits his belief system
Dredge:
I understand that, as an atheist, it's very easy for APauling to believe the Darwinian bedtime story ... despite what the fossil record says.

It is not just AZPaul3, you have a bunch of these atheists, here on this forum. They think they have the corner on science but don't understand the simplest principles. What is sad is how their kind of thinking permeates the field of biology. It is no wonder that biologists have failed to explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. They are too busy pursuing their pseudo-scientific beliefs, like nested hierarchies and these weird claims about retroviruses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 8:45 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by Tangle, posted 03-27-2023 11:09 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 651 by Taq, posted 03-27-2023 3:39 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 689 by Dredge, posted 03-28-2023 12:42 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 641 of 1104 (909041)
03-27-2023 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Kleinman
03-27-2023 9:29 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
They think they have the corner on science but don't understand the simplest principles.
Atheists are the minority group in science as well as society.
Scientists and Belief | Pew Research Center
You fundamentalist nut jobs need to look to find a new excuse for being wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Kleinman, posted 03-27-2023 9:29 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by Kleinman, posted 03-27-2023 12:54 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 643 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 1:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 642 of 1104 (909051)
03-27-2023 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by Tangle
03-27-2023 11:09 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman:
They think they have the corner on science but don't understand the simplest principles.
Tangle:
Atheists are the minority group in science as well as society.

Have atheists come up with any rational scientific idea? They certainly don't understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. Otherwise, they could explain the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by Tangle, posted 03-27-2023 11:09 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 643 of 1104 (909052)
03-27-2023 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by Tangle
03-27-2023 11:09 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Tangled writes:
You fundamentalist nut jobs need to look to find a new excuse for being wrong.
Atheism has its fair share of fundamentalist nut jobs as well ... although I prefer to call them fruit-cakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by Tangle, posted 03-27-2023 11:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 644 by Kleinman, posted 03-27-2023 1:42 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 645 by Tangle, posted 03-27-2023 1:49 PM Dredge has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 644 of 1104 (909053)
03-27-2023 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Dredge
03-27-2023 1:10 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Tangle:
You fundamentalist nut jobs need to look to find a new excuse for being wrong.
Dredge:
Atheism has its fair share of fundamentalist nut jobs as well ... although I prefer to call them fruit-cakes.

Don't you know that atheists can prove there is no God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 1:10 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Dredge, posted 03-28-2023 12:46 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 645 of 1104 (909054)
03-27-2023 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Dredge
03-27-2023 1:10 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Dredge writes:
Atheism has its fair share of fundamentalist nut jobs as well ... although I prefer to call them fruit-cakes.
Atheists tend to be rational so that's unlikely, but whatever the proportion, your comment is irrelevant.
Scientists are overwhelmingly also believers, I'm afraid you can't blame scientific findings on atheists - well of course you can and you will because you're a bunch of disingenuous fruit loops - but the facts speak for themselves.
Atheists are only 17% of scientists and as science progresses by consensus, you're just plain wrong about science and atheism.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Dredge, posted 03-27-2023 1:10 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 646 by Kleinman, posted 03-27-2023 2:17 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 691 by Dredge, posted 03-28-2023 12:55 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 693 by Dredge, posted 03-28-2023 12:56 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 695 by Dredge, posted 03-28-2023 1:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024