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Author Topic:   Choosing to believe
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 76 of 90 (908359)
03-12-2023 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by rstrats
03-12-2023 2:52 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
I didn't follow that train of thought did. I? My new answer is if the room gets cold then the fire is cold. This is self evident

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by rstrats, posted 03-12-2023 2:52 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 03-13-2023 7:30 AM Phat has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 77 of 90 (908362)
03-13-2023 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
03-12-2023 6:37 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
Phat,
re: "I didn't follow that train of thought did. I?"
So it would seem.
re: "My new answer is if the room gets cold then the fire is cold. This is self evident"
Ok, you accept that as evidence that fire is cold. At that point what is the state of your mind with regard to having a belief - a conviction - that fire is cold?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 03-12-2023 6:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 03-13-2023 8:41 AM rstrats has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 78 of 90 (908364)
03-13-2023 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by rstrats
03-13-2023 7:30 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
In my opinion, belief (mine at least) is not simply yin and yang. Hot and Cold. Good and Evil. Though it is evident that our world has both elements, (Dualism) I do not see polar opposites of equal power or persuasion. Ellis Potter explains it here in a topic I wrote a few years ago. 3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God
but
God is not alone
~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 03-13-2023 7:30 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 03-13-2023 10:40 AM Phat has replied
 Message 80 by rstrats, posted 03-13-2023 6:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 79 of 90 (908366)
03-13-2023 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
03-13-2023 8:41 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
Those are not Christian beliefs or beliefs of most major religions so not sure why would.you believe in it?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 03-13-2023 8:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 9:38 AM Theodoric has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 80 of 90 (908380)
03-13-2023 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
03-13-2023 8:41 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
Phat,
re: "In my opinion, belief (mine at least) is not simply yin and yang."
So then what was your state of mind with regard to belief when you got evidence that fire was cold?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 03-13-2023 8:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 81 of 90 (908405)
03-14-2023 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Theodoric
03-13-2023 10:40 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
Take this argument to Message 16 and we can discuss it there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 03-13-2023 10:40 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Theodoric, posted 03-14-2023 9:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 82 of 90 (908406)
03-14-2023 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
03-14-2023 9:38 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
No thanks

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 9:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 2:21 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 83 of 90 (908411)
03-14-2023 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Theodoric
03-14-2023 9:44 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
All Im arguing is that Ellis Potters argument is most certainly Christian, rational, and philosophically sound.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Theodoric, posted 03-14-2023 9:44 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by PaulK, posted 03-14-2023 2:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 84 of 90 (908412)
03-14-2023 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by rstrats
03-12-2023 2:52 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
Message 75
Paraphrased:
Modulous writes:
would you actually hold the belief 'fire is cold' by choice?

nope. I would need evidence.
rstrats writes:
I assumed you were saying that you would need evidence in order to choose to believe that fire is cold. I asked you how you would know when you had the evidence?

You replied - "I suppose when I threw something in the fire and it burned up."

How would that be evidence that fire is cold?
Fire is fire. It is hot. Always. I would in fact need evidence that fire was cold...and so far I have never seen a cold fire. Does that make sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by rstrats, posted 03-12-2023 2:52 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by rstrats, posted 03-23-2023 6:21 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 85 of 90 (908413)
03-14-2023 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
03-14-2023 2:21 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
quote:
All Im arguing is that Ellis Potters argument is most certainly Christian, rational, and philosophically sound.
It is certainly neither rational nor philosophically sound. It looks like ignorant egotism to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 2:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 2:45 PM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 86 of 90 (908414)
03-14-2023 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by PaulK
03-14-2023 2:26 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
Well...one could argue that you are showing your own egotism by even making such a statement, though I do not see you as ignorant.
Websters:
Egotism--
: excessive use of the first person singular personal pronoun
b
: the practice of talking about oneself too much
2
: an exaggerated sense of self-importance : conceit
I could go so far as to say that your sense of a materialistic universe with "no need" of a Creator is itself willfully ignorant, but why throw gasoline on the fire?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by PaulK, posted 03-14-2023 2:26 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 03-14-2023 3:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 87 of 90 (908419)
03-14-2023 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
03-14-2023 2:45 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
quote:
Well...one could argue that you are showing your own egotism by even making such a statement, though I do not see you as ignorant.
Really? I note that none of the definitions of egotism that you quote really fit.
quote:
I could go so far as to say that your sense of a materialistic universe with "no need" of a Creator is itself willfully ignorant, but why throw gasoline on the fire?
You could say that, but you’d be lying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 2:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 88 of 90 (908901)
03-23-2023 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
03-14-2023 2:25 PM


Re: Choosing To Believe
You replied - "I suppose when I threw something in the fire and it burned up."

So I ask again, how would that be evidence that fire is cold?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 2:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 03-23-2023 10:11 AM rstrats has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 89 of 90 (908907)
03-23-2023 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by rstrats
03-23-2023 6:21 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
It would be evidence that the fire was hot. (Why are you stuck on this point?)
I suppose you could argue that any observational "evidence" was inconclusive. But again, move on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by rstrats, posted 03-23-2023 6:21 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by rstrats, posted 03-23-2023 11:16 AM Phat has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 90 of 90 (908908)
03-23-2023 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
03-23-2023 10:11 AM


Re: Choosing To Believe
Phat,
re: "...move on."
Since it's apparent you're not going to answer my question, I shall do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 03-23-2023 10:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
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