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Author Topic:   Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2
Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 611 of 1104 (908759)
03-20-2023 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 596 by Kleinman
03-18-2023 4:41 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
So, the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments are not evidence?
The populations in those experiments produced a nested hierarchy due to common ancestry and evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Kleinman, posted 03-18-2023 4:41 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 11:48 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 612 of 1104 (908760)
03-20-2023 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 600 by Kleinman
03-18-2023 5:33 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Tell us more about how a germ cell line can get 200,000 retroviral infections without killing that line.
The same way you survive with 200,000 retroviral insertions in your genome. These insertions are a fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by Kleinman, posted 03-18-2023 5:33 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 11:51 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 615 of 1104 (908765)
03-20-2023 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by Kleinman
03-20-2023 11:51 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
And your own link about koalas and the retroviral infection these animals have may drive them to extinction.
The exogenous retrovirus may drive them to extinction, not the endogenous ones.
You have over 200,000 endogenous retroviruses in your genome. This is a fact. You survive just fine with those ERV's.
I think you are having trouble recognizing what a fact is and what a misinterpretation of data is because this is a gross misinterpretation of the data by you.
From the human genome paper:

Initial sequencing and analysis of the human genome | Nature
Adding up ERV class I-III is equal to 203,000 insertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 11:51 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 12:30 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 617 of 1104 (908768)
03-20-2023 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by Kleinman
03-20-2023 12:30 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Your own koala example demonstrates this and may drive them to extinction.
Some retroviruses may pose a serious threat to a species, others may not. It depends on the virus.
Now you want to claim that a lineage can have 200,000 of these infections (even if each infection is separated by 10s, 100s, or 1000s of generations) and it never kills that lineage,
You are living proof that this occurs. You have 203,000 ERVs in your genome.
You and the authors of any papers making this claim are misinterpreting the data, just like you misinterpret the data of recombination.
I'll stick with the experts on this one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 12:30 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 12:56 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 619 of 1104 (908772)
03-20-2023 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Kleinman
03-20-2023 12:56 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Only 100,000 of the 200,000 infections pose a serious threat? Or 50,000? Or 25,000? It only takes one to be a serious threat, and your koala example shows it only takes one.
Are you dying because of the 203,000 endogenous retroviruses in your genome? No?
It would never enter your mind that none of these sequences are the result of retroviral infection.
That's like a defense attorney trying to convince the jury that fingerprints at a crime scene never came from his defendant's fingers. They aren't even fingerprints, they are just some swirly marks that leprechauns made, right?
Do you mean those so-called experts that can't explain the physics and mathematics of biological evolution and fail to explain why drug resistance evolves and cancer treatments fail? Your so-called experts are failures that don't understand that a single retrovirus infection can be fatal to a lineage.
You don't even understand how the basics of meiosis work. Sorry, but I will go with the experts on the Human Genome project, all of whom have way more knowledge and experience than you do. We could even go with the guy who wrote the textbook on retroviruses:
quote:
Given the size of vertebrate genomes (>1 × 109 bp) and the random nature of retroviral integration (22, 23), multiple integrations (and subsequent fixation) of ERV loci at precisely the same location are highly unlikely (24). Therefore, an ERV locus shared by two or more species is descended from a single integration event and is proof that the species share a common ancestor into whose germ line the original integration took place (14).
Just a moment...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 12:56 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 1:41 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 621 of 1104 (908791)
03-20-2023 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by Kleinman
03-20-2023 1:41 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Taq, you don't know if the sequences are the result of retroviral infections.
We know that ERV's are the result of retroviral infections in the same way that we know fingerprints are the product of fingers.
You wish I don't understand how meiosis works.
You don't understand how meiosis works. You can't understand how alleles in two different genes relate to one another in sexually reproducing species. Can you even tell us what the difference is between unlinked and linked genes?
Your so-called expert doesn't understand that a single retrovirus infection can be lethal to a lineage.
What's the mortality rate for adenoviral infections?
What's the mortality rate for HTLV-1 infections?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 1:41 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 3:43 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 623 of 1104 (908801)
03-20-2023 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 622 by Kleinman
03-20-2023 3:43 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
All you have shown is that a single retroviral infection can be fatal to a lineage
I have 203,000 examples of non-lethal ERVs.
Kleinman writes:
If you know so much about alleles, explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
Already did that in this thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20319
You should know that adenovirus is not a retrovirus that normally causes mild symptoms but can kill under some circumstances.
It also occasionally inserts into the genome. HTLV-1 is a retrovirus, and in most cases is asymptomatic.
Are you going to claim that a lineage can get 200,000 HTLV-1 infections and the lineage is just fine?
I have 203,000 pieces of evidence that it can.
But your claim for retroviruses is that they get incorporated into germ cells where viral infections in the early stages of pregnancy are oftentimes catastrophic for the fetus because they disrupt the differentiation process.
Koala embryonic development is not disrupted by the presence of these retroviruses. Your embryonic development was not interrupted by the 203,000 ERVs in your genome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 3:43 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 5:09 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 625 of 1104 (908828)
03-21-2023 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Kleinman
03-20-2023 5:09 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
This argument would convince anyone that had no idea what a virus does to its host, especially when the infection is in a germ cell.
You are the one who has no idea what the virus does to the host. For example:
"But your claim for retroviruses is that they get incorporated into germ cells where viral infections in the early stages of pregnancy are oftentimes catastrophic for the fetus because they disrupt the differentiation process."
Koalas with recently inserted ERVs are not born with catastrophic birth defects.
You are wrong.
Then, why are koalas threatened with extinction because of their retroviral infection?
They are threatened with extinction because of the EXOGENOUS retrovirus, not the endogenous retrovirus. The retrovirus is currently being spread like any other virus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Kleinman, posted 03-20-2023 5:09 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Kleinman, posted 03-22-2023 9:59 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(3)
Message 627 of 1104 (908865)
03-22-2023 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 626 by Kleinman
03-22-2023 9:59 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
And if the host cell is a germ cell, the germ cell is dead, and you don't get any birth defects in a dead cell. Infant koalas aren't getting any birth defects, they are dying long before that, threatening the population with extinction.
Koalas are born with the ERVs from a currently active exogenous retrovirus. This is a fact. Deny it all you want, that fact still exists.
For your story to work, an endogenous retrovirus must start out as an exogenous retrovirus that kills its host cell in order for the virus to survive and replicate. And if the host cell is a germ cell, the germ cell does not survive to differentiate and produce an adult.
Koalas are born with the ERVs from a currently circulating exogenous retrovirus. Obviously, the germ cells with these insertions are functioning just fine, as is embryonic development. You are wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Kleinman, posted 03-22-2023 9:59 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by Kleinman, posted 03-22-2023 1:38 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 629 of 1104 (908893)
03-22-2023 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by Kleinman
03-22-2023 1:38 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
You sound like the layman ringo when you say "This is a fact."
It is a fact that ERV's from KoRV insertions (an active exogenous retrovirus) are being vertically inherited in koalas.
quote:
KoRVs, on the other hand, can be transmitted both vertically and horizontally [5, 7, 13–16].
Koala retrovirus epidemiology, transmission mode, pathogenesis, and host immune response in koalas (Phascolarctos cinereus): a review - PMC
What are you not understanding here? ERVs from the active retrovirus are known to be passed on vertically. This is found all over the literature.
Are you denying that ERVs from the currently active exogenous KoRV retrovirus exist in koalas? If so, we can start discussing that evidence.
Added in edit:
quote:
On the basis of these data, KoRV seemed more like an exogenous, rather than endogenous, virus. Although no standard definition of an endogenous virus exists, most sources agree that they must be integrated into germ-line tissue and passed on to offspring as a mendelian allele2. Two methods were used to confirm KoRV integration into germ-line tissue. Single-cell fluorescent PCR of koala sperm was performed in order to eliminate the possibility of lysed blood or somatic cell contamination yielding false PCR positives, and this confirmed that KoRV was present in koala germ cells (Supplementary Fig. 1c). This result was supported by fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH) analysis of koala whole sperm with a KoRV-specific probe. (Supplementary Fig. 1d).
Given the presence of KoRV in germ-line cells, we investigated family lineages for inheritance of specific insert patterns. Southern blotting of HindIII-digested DNA extracted from blood cells of related animals from a captive colony and hybridization with the KoRV env probe (Fig. 2a) demonstrated that these animals showed a higher degree of insert pattern similarity than unrelated animals (compare with Fig. 1b). Banding patterns in the offspring (Fig. 2b) were found to be a combination of parental patterns, with some bands being inherited across three generations. The viral insert pattern did not vary across tissues in an individual, further indicating that the virus was endogenous (Fig. 2c).
Retroviral invasion of the koala genome | Nature
So not only did they confirm the presence of the ERVs in the DNA genomes of germ line cells, they also confirmed that the same ERVs are found at the same positin in the genome in multiple generations. These are vertically inherited KoRV insertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by Kleinman, posted 03-22-2023 1:38 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by Kleinman, posted 03-22-2023 7:19 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(3)
Message 631 of 1104 (908909)
03-23-2023 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by Kleinman
03-22-2023 7:19 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
How does a germ cell line get 203,000 retroviral infections?
The same way it is happening in koalas.
I think you and the research you are quoting are mistaking host genetic sequences that control the transcription of DNA with viral DNA.
Baloney. These are viral insertions in the koala genome, and they match the currently active exogenous retrovirus. More importantly, there are pockets of koalas that have not been exposed to the virus and they lack these insertions in their genome. These insertions are also found in the genomes of germline cells, and they are passed on vertically as I already showed.
Superficially the sequences may appear the same but the belief that our germ cell line has been infected 203,000 times by retroviruses ignores the fact of what these viruses do to their host.
You are the only one ignoring evidence here. There is evidence that there are insertions into the koala genome from a currently active exogenous retrovirus. These are found in the germline cells. The insertions are vertically inherited. There are even koala populations that do not have these insertions which demonstrates they were not a part of the host genome before the retrovirus began infecting koala populations.
quote:
Until now, we have never had the opportunity of observing or studying such genomic colonization as it takes place. Enter the koala - an Australian icon and a potentially endangered species. A recent paper in Nature by Tarlington and colleagues [1] provides evidence that koalas are in the midst of a germline invasion by the koala retrovirus (KoRV). They show that KoRV is present, at variable copy number, in the germline of all koalas found in Queensland, but that animals from some areas of southern Australia lack the provirus. Most notably, KoRV appears completely absent from koalas on Kangaroo Island off the coast of South Australia.
Koala retrovirus: a genome invasion in real time - PMC
The highly variable placement of endogenous copies of the virus is also a big piece of evidence, demonstrating that the insertions are nowhere close to reaching fixation. This is all evidence of a very recent invasion of the koala genome.
You are being illogical when you claim that it can happen 203,000 times without driving the lineage to extinction.
The only one being illogical is you. You are the one ignoring mountains of evidence demonstrating an ongoing retroviral germline invasion of a mammalian genome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Kleinman, posted 03-22-2023 7:19 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by Kleinman, posted 03-23-2023 1:29 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 633 of 1104 (908924)
03-23-2023 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by Kleinman
03-23-2023 1:29 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
The same way that the koala population may go extinct?
Your claim is that there shouldn't even be new koala offspring. There is.
Why would you claim that koalas don't have their own DNA that controls transcription?
That's completely irrelevant. We are talking about the viral genomes that have been inserted into the koala genome.
Why won't you accept the fact that koalas are threatened by extinction from this virus, regardless of whether the insertion of the viral genome or not?
Why won't you accept that these viral sequences exist in germline cells and are being passed down vertically without birth defects?
And then you claim that 203,000 retroviruses can infect a germ cell line without killing that lineage just because a virus that is driving a koala population toward extinction is being inserted into the genome.
You are claiming no offspring should even be possible. That is what I am addressing. Admit that you are wrong and we can move on to the next dumb statement you are making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by Kleinman, posted 03-23-2023 1:29 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Kleinman, posted 03-24-2023 9:08 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 635 of 1104 (908955)
03-24-2023 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by Kleinman
03-24-2023 9:08 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
And if the virus inserts into a germ cell, the offspring formed by that germ cell will have that viral disease.
You claimed that koala embryos could never even be formed, or that they would be born with birth defects. Neither is occurring. Admit your error and we can move on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Kleinman, posted 03-24-2023 9:08 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Kleinman, posted 03-24-2023 12:01 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 650 of 1104 (909059)
03-27-2023 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Kleinman
03-24-2023 12:01 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Don't be silly. But I don't blame you for wanting to bail out from this discussion. It isn't difficult to explain why your concepts of nested hierarchies and retroviruses are nonsensical. We all look forward to your publication of a mathematical explanation of how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
I'm not the one bailing out. That would be you. You can't admit that koalas are being born with ERVs from a currently active exogenous retrovirus. Instead, you run away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Kleinman, posted 03-24-2023 12:01 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 651 of 1104 (909060)
03-27-2023 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 640 by Kleinman
03-27-2023 9:29 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
They think they have the corner on science but don't understand the simplest principles.
I do understand the simple principle of how koalas are being born with ERV's from a currently active exogenous retrovirus.
I do understand what a nested hierarchy is.
You apparently can't comprehend either of these.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Kleinman, posted 03-27-2023 9:29 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Kleinman, posted 03-27-2023 3:55 PM Taq has replied

  
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