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Coffee House Musing

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Theodoric
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Message 337 of 381 (908615)
03-17-2023 10:59 AM 		Reply to: Message 336 by Dredge
03-17-2023 9:14 AM

Re: YEC's will be scrambling
Your saying there is a 40 million meter tape measure?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

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 Message 336 by Dredge, posted 03-17-2023 9:14 AM Dredge has replied
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Theodoric
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Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2

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Message 367 of 381 (912953)
10-07-2023 10:28 AM 		Reply to: Message 365 by AZPaul3
10-06-2023 9:37 PM

Re: Strong Evidence of Humans in N. America 21K-23K Years Ago
It is a huge difference in archaeology and history. It changes the whole idea of indigenous culture and population models.
For the general public, it is meaningless. For archaeology and history geeks it is huge.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by AZPaul3, posted 10-06-2023 9:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by AZPaul3, posted 10-07-2023 10:40 AM Theodoric has replied
  
Theodoric
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Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2

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Message 368 of 381 (912954)
10-07-2023 10:33 AM 		Reply to: Message 366 by Percy
10-07-2023 9:16 AM

Re: Strong Evidence of Humans in N. America 21K-23K Years Ago
Yes there were probably multiple migrations in the 200k years, but we are looking at and for one that had a significant influence and lasted.
If they made it to New Mexico it was significant and permanent. If they were there at this time frame when did their ancestors enter America?
Hugely, significant in our understanding of issues like future population levels, extinction of species and domestication of native flora and fauna.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Percy, posted 10-07-2023 9:16 AM Percy has not replied
  
Theodoric
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Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 372 of 381 (912963)
10-07-2023 12:14 PM 		Reply to: Message 369 by AZPaul3
10-07-2023 10:40 AM

Re: Strong Evidence of Humans in N. America 21K-23K Years Ago
10,000 years is a huge increase in time that the population grew in the Americas. Part of the reason there is an argument about a 100 million+ population pre-European contact is that there was not enough time to get to that level. This helps put another nail in that argument.
That influences the interpretations of indigenous culture. The conventional wisdom has been that there were only a couple of large urban population centers and the sophisticated cultures that go with them. A higher population supports the idea of more sophisticated cultures than existed when there were at the time European contact.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by AZPaul3, posted 10-07-2023 10:40 AM AZPaul3 has not replied
  
Theodoric
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Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 373 of 381 (912965)
10-07-2023 12:23 PM 		Reply to: Message 370 by Percy
10-07-2023 10:57 AM

Re: Strong Evidence of Humans in N. America 21K-23K Years Ago
Technology is a cultural thing. Indigenous Americans had access to copper and iron. In fact, they used copper tools before the rest of the world. There are many reasons they may not have made further steps. Wood and stone technology was world class. Also, most of the large mammals died out fairly early after people came to the Americas. Finally, indigenous cultures may have had less of a "conquer nature" vibe than Asian and European.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Percy, posted 10-07-2023 10:57 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 10-08-2023 8:26 AM Theodoric has replied
  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2

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Message 376 of 381 (913008)
10-08-2023 10:55 AM 		Reply to: Message 374 by Phat
10-08-2023 8:26 AM

Re: Strong Evidence of Humans in N. America 21K-23K Years Ago
The indigenous tribes that Europeans made contact with were the barer remnants of the societies that existed a few hundred years before. Many of the indigenous societies were destroyed by disease well before actual contact with Europeans. The latest scholarship puts that number at 80-90%+ of the native population was wiped out by disease. The vast majority before their groups made actual contact with Europeans. The disease spread like dominos falling throughout the Americas.
​
The scholarship also shows that the majority were stewards of nature. The tribes of the upper Great Lakes actively managed the pine forests of the area. The great grasslands of the American plains were also actively managed also.
​
By "conquer nature" I meant destroying the world around them. I did not mean violence toward other people. Again the fact that these societies went from fairly sophisticated to subsistence in a generation had a great effect on their relationship with other people.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 10-08-2023 8:26 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by Phat, posted 10-08-2023 1:46 PM Theodoric has not replied
  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2

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Message 377 of 381 (913009)
10-08-2023 10:59 AM 		Reply to: Message 375 by Percy
10-08-2023 9:29 AM

Re: Strong Evidence of Humans in N. America 21K-23K Years Ago
But those societies that the Europeans were in contact with from 1500 on were not the same societies that existed prior to European contact.
Disease had wiped out millions across the Americas between 1492 and 1600.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Percy, posted 10-08-2023 9:29 AM Percy has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Percy, posted 10-08-2023 11:27 AM Theodoric has not replied
  
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