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Author Topic:   The Power of the New Intelligent Design...
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1025 of 1197 (908294)
03-09-2023 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1020 by sensei
03-09-2023 6:18 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
Observing patterns in one group of species is hardly sufficient evidence for the nested tree that you draw from your universal common ancestry hypothesis.
You can predict a nested hierarchy from first principles, just as Darwin did. It is no different than Einstein's thought experiments that were used to create predictions of what we should see if relativity is true.
If you think we are wrong, then show us why vertical inheritance, common ancestry, speciation, and mutation should not produce a nested hierarchy.
So no, we have not observed nested hierarchy anywhere higher up, anywhere at significant high enough levels where it really counts.
We do observe a nested hierarchy higher up. It is found in all complex life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1020 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 6:18 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1026 of 1197 (908295)
03-09-2023 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by sensei
03-09-2023 6:23 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
A prediction is done before observation, dumb ape!
Postdictions are just as valid in science. For example, one of the strongest initial pieces of evidence for Einstein's theory of relativity is that it accurately predicted the the already known precession in Mercury's orbit. Newton's laws were not able to explain the precession in the orbit, but Einstein's equations were able to explain it. It didn't matter that the precession was already known.

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 Message 1023 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 6:23 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1067 of 1197 (908531)
03-16-2023 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1065 by Dredge
03-16-2023 7:57 AM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
Well said. Darwinoids like APauling are afraid of the light and see only what they want to see. All contrary evidence is blissfully ignored ... or explained away in some lame manner.
All claimed contrary evidence is never presented by ID/creationists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by Dredge, posted 03-16-2023 7:57 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1074 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:11 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1068 of 1197 (908532)
03-16-2023 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1062 by Dredge
03-16-2023 7:40 AM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
Providing an "alternative" has nothing to do with highlighting the deep flaws in the neo-Darwinian ToE.
And yet you can never tell us what these flaws are.
Furthermore, how can anyone provide an explanation for what produced the history of life on earth if no one even knows what happened?
We do know what happened. We have the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by Dredge, posted 03-16-2023 7:40 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1075 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:12 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1096 by Dredge, posted 03-18-2023 10:50 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 1069 of 1197 (908533)
03-16-2023 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Dredge
03-16-2023 1:34 AM


Dredge writes:
You're getting a bit ahead of yourself, old chap .... "evolutionary mechanisms" is the best scientific explanation, but you can't prove that that explanation is correct.
I can prove it, beyond any reasonable doubt.
The array of skulls depicted in the image you supplied is meant to portray the
"transitional steps in the fossil record" , but all you've done is provide yet another shameful example of Darwinoid dishonesty.

What Darwinoids don't tell readers about that image is that:

1. Not all the skulls are not found in the fossil record in the same (alleged) evolutionary sequence depicted in the image. The (alleged) evolutionary sequence is therefore patently fraudulent.

2. Some of the skulls are tiny relative to the size of some of the other skulls. It's like comparing the skull of a marmoset to the skull of a gorilla.

3. There is nothing remotely "evolutionary" about the skeletons belonging to any of the non-human skulls in that image ... skeletons that are no closer to human than any of the non-human primates we see today.
1. Those skulls are arranged by their age, as determined by radiometric dating. That you see a transitional series when they are arranged by their age says a lot.
2. A marmoset skull is not a marmoset skull because of its size. If you think all that matters is size then you don't know squat about paleontology or biology.
3. If those skulls are not transitional, then please tell us what features these skulls are missing that a real transitional skull would have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Dredge, posted 03-16-2023 1:34 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1098 by Dredge, posted 03-18-2023 10:59 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 1104 by Dredge, posted 03-19-2023 5:23 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 1105 by Dredge, posted 03-19-2023 5:35 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1070 of 1197 (908534)
03-16-2023 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1040 by Dredge
03-16-2023 4:09 AM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
In that case, any two organisms could form a nested hierarchy.
You have just proven that you don't know what a nested hierarchy is. You have to have at least three organisms to have a nested hierarchy.
Just like the vast majority of ID/creationists, you have no idea what the evidence is or how biology works. You also can't seem to understand that it was a creationist who discovered the nested heirarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by Dredge, posted 03-16-2023 4:09 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1071 of 1197 (908535)
03-16-2023 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Dredge
03-16-2023 4:36 AM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
You're in denial. If huge evolutionary gaps in the fossil record aren't real, explain why dDawkins wrote this:

"Eldredge and Gould certainly would agree that some very important gaps really are due to imperfections in the fossil record. Very big gaps, too. For example the Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years, are the oldest ones in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history ...
My point here is that, when we are talking about gaps of this magnitude, there is no difference whatever in the interpretations of 'punctuationists' and 'gradualists'."

(Dawkins, Richard, "The Blind Watchmaker," [1986], Penguin: London, 1991 reprint, p.229-230)
Dawkins is also saying that the gaps are not real. He plainly states that the gaps are due to imperfections in the fossil record. Thank you for agreeing with us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by Dredge, posted 03-16-2023 4:36 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1111 by Dredge, posted 03-22-2023 1:15 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1072 of 1197 (908536)
03-16-2023 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by sensei
03-16-2023 5:33 AM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
My new topic proposal is a model for point mutations in neutral DNA, where mutations do not give benefit or disadvantage to the individual.

Next relevant question would be, to estimate what portion of DNA this would apply to. How big of a part of DNA can be considered as "junk" and non-functional, where mutations have no effect to the organism?
Depends on the organism. For humans and most mammals, somewhere around 90-95% of the genome is junk. That number varies quite a bit amongst vertebrates and eukaryotes in general. For example, there are fish genomes that are about the fifth the size of the human genome but has about the same amount of functional DNA. A recently sequenced crustacean genome is about 15 times larger than the human genome is mostly junk. The bladderwort genome is about 1/40th the size of the human genome and only ~5% of that genome is junk. Bacterial genomes have very little junk, and viral genomes have almost no junk DNA at all.
If we are talking about the human genome, scientists use sequence conservation to measure the amount of junk DNA. If DNA is functional then deleterious mutations will occur in that DNA which will be selected against. As it stands, more than 90% of the human genome is not being conserved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 5:33 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1077 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:25 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1106 by Dredge, posted 03-19-2023 5:43 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1076 of 1197 (908556)
03-16-2023 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1075 by sensei
03-16-2023 6:12 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
You don't know. You guess.
We know because we have the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1075 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:12 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1078 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:26 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1081 of 1197 (908568)
03-16-2023 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1077 by sensei
03-16-2023 6:25 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
If we apply the model of point mutations for neutral DNA with four different bases A, C, G and T, the similarity in junk DNA should drop to 25%.
There are GC biases in mutations, but you are essentially right. If there is enough time since common ancestry then the accumulated mutations in each lineage will reduce any similarity to random noise in junk DNA.
If we were sharing a common ancestor with plants and insects, given the estimate that over hundreds of millions of generations have passed (or even more for many species with shorter life cycles), every base should have gone through several mutations already in the vast majority of individuals today.
It seems that we share too much DNA with such supposedly distant relatives, it does not really add up.
You are forgetting about sequence conservation due to natural selection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:25 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1083 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:46 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1082 of 1197 (908570)
03-16-2023 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1078 by sensei
03-16-2023 6:26 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
95% of your evidence is junk for sure.
Your inability to address the evidence is noted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1078 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:26 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1084 of 1197 (908577)
03-16-2023 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1083 by sensei
03-16-2023 6:46 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
And how does natural selection preserve sequences in junk DNA?
It doesn't. It conserves sequence in functional DNA. When genomes of very distantly related species are compared the only bits that have recognizable similarity is functional DNA, not junk DNA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1083 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:46 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1085 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1092 of 1197 (908613)
03-17-2023 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1085 by sensei
03-16-2023 6:55 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
If 90% is junk and 10% is functional for such distant relatives, then DNA similarity should be around 10% + ¼×90% = 32.5%. Not around 50%.
Are you referring to the urban legend that humans and bananas share 50% of their DNA? I hope you realize that humans and bananas don't share 50% of their DNA. At best, humans and bananas share 50% of their genes, although that is even questionable. Of the genes that are shared, there are going to be bases that are different.
Added in edit:
An article worth reading:
quote:
The second thing to keep in mind is that genes, which are the regions of the DNA that code for these proteins, only make up 2 percent of your DNA.
For this particular experiment, scientists first looked at the sequences of genes in a typical banana genome. "We then used these DNA sequences to predict the amino acid sequence of all the proteins that would be made from those genes," Brody says, noting that the protein sequences were placed in a file. "We then did the same process for all human genes."
Next, the scientists compared the protein sequence from each banana gene to every human gene. "The program compares how similar the sequence of the banana genes are to each human gene," he says, noting that the degree of similarity could range 0 to 100 percent. "The program kept any matches that were more similar than one would expect by chance." The program continued doing this, gene by gene.
All told, more than 4 million comparisons were done, resulting in about 7,000 best "hits" between the two genomes. Then, the percent similarity score for each of those hits was averaged. "This gave us the result of about 40 percent," he says. "This is the average similarity between proteins (gene products), not genes." Gene products or proteins are the biochemical material resulting from a gene becoming functional. "Of course, there are many, many genes in our genome that do not have a recognizable counterpart in the banana genome and vice versa."
Do People and Bananas Really Share 50 Percent of the Same DNA? | HowStuffWorks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1085 by sensei, posted 03-16-2023 6:55 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1109 of 1197 (908756)
03-20-2023 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1106 by Dredge
03-19-2023 5:43 AM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
Translation:
"We scientist like to claim it's 90-95% "junk" bcoz
(a) we don't know what its function is, and
(b) finding lots of "junk" DNA in genomes supports our beloved theory of evolution."
We scientists have evidence that 90-95% of the genome is junk.
a) 90-95% of the genome is accumulating mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift.
b) The theory of evolution takes no position on how much junk DNA there should be in any given genome. The bladderwort genome has less than 5% junk DNA, and it fits in just fine with the theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1106 by Dredge, posted 03-19-2023 5:43 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1121 by Dredge, posted 03-22-2023 6:16 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1110 of 1197 (908757)
03-20-2023 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1105 by Dredge
03-19-2023 5:35 AM


Dredge writes:
Firstly, you can't prove that any of those skulls are "transitional".
Yes, we can. It is proven that the skulls have a mixture of features common to both humans and other apes. That makes them transitional by definition.
They're chosen and displayed in a manner that may look transitional to some.
They are arranged by their age. Thank you for confirming that they look transitional.
Secondly, please explain why none of the skeletons belonging to the non-human skulls in that image provide any evidence of being transitional.
They do have a mixture of ape and human features. They are transitional by definition.
They're no closer to human than the skeletons of the non-human primates we see today.
You already said they look transitional.
"They're chosen and displayed in a manner that may look transitional to some."
So what makes them look transitional? Please explain. What features are these skeletons missing that a real transitional would have?
Also, the pelvises are quite obviously more human-like.
Are you telling me that the two pelvises in the middle do not look more like the pelvis on the left than the pelvis on the right? Seriously?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by Dredge, posted 03-19-2023 5:35 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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