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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2250 of 3694 (908391)
03-13-2023 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2246 by GDR
03-13-2023 8:17 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
However I would also point out that our thinking is affected by the selfish behaviour of others. There are numerous non-detectable influences that go into forming our thoughts and actions.
Our thinking is affected by lots of things. We know that. Not just the actions of others but by the Vit. E content of your last meal. These influences are just that because they cause real physical changes in the brain. No, we have not found all such influences but we have done a good job of disproving evil spirits and demonic possession so we got that going for us. And we are on the march toward assessing the real cranial impact of pizza and beer at a strip joint.
BTW. Non-detectable means not detected yet. Will find 'em.
All such influences we can identify are physical. We have no reason to suppose anything other. Religiously motivated what-ifs and maybe’s don’t count … anymore. There are no justifiable reasons to entertain such notions.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2246 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2252 by GDR, posted 03-14-2023 2:49 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2254 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 8:19 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2261 of 3694 (908423)
03-14-2023 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2252 by GDR
03-14-2023 2:49 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Science of the Gaps yet again.
Technology of the Gaps.
Again, how can you physically tell me by a brain scan what caused a person to act in a certain way.
We are ignorant of such things only because our technology is not to the point it can discern this requirement of yours. Give us the full scope of the EM map of a living thinking brain in real time. Our tech, as wonderful as it is, is not to that point.
There should be little doubt, though, that we will gain that capability in the future. There doesn't appear to be any question that human knowledge and understanding is now progressing along exponential lines and we may see your motivations written in the signal sooner than you may want.
Again, everything we have ever seen in this universe is physical. Appears only the physical mind can conjure the fantasy powers and happenings you have contrived. Reality does not support their existence.
You might guess it was become something a parent said, something that they read, observing what someone else has done or reacted to the still small voce of God.
As your fantasy states, yes, you are allowed any majik what-ifs you can dream up.
Science, however, is restricted to reality. That includes any reasonable extrapolations from the existing data but does not include fantasy and superstition.
No, you do not get to make up entities for reality. Yes, science says your gods do not exist simply because there is nothing to evidence or require such a thing in this universe.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2252 by GDR, posted 03-14-2023 2:49 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2262 by Phat, posted 03-15-2023 1:33 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2264 of 3694 (908447)
03-15-2023 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2263 by GDR
03-15-2023 7:10 PM


I owe a response to a number of you and I aopologise for not getting to them.
Stop that. There are no requirements to respond here.
Respond as the spirit moves you or not. If this place is a source of discomfort and personal pressure then, to me, you're not using us right. This is supposed to be fun. If it takes so for you then I will not be offended if you ignore my ravings to follow your (religiously injured) heart.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2263 by GDR, posted 03-15-2023 7:10 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2272 by Phat, posted 03-16-2023 7:11 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2265 of 3694 (908448)
03-15-2023 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2263 by GDR
03-15-2023 7:10 PM


If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision ...
If Eleanor Roosevelt had wings ...
quote:
If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too.
Bullshit. A self-serving twist of personal ego wrapped in incredulity. The workings of the universe are only accidents to the ignorant. Besides, we are not that important that we need to justify our existence.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2263 by GDR, posted 03-15-2023 7:10 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2267 of 3694 (908459)
03-15-2023 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2266 by nwr
03-15-2023 8:07 PM


Very good, sir. Then so is the concept of god. God is a mental accident.
I could actually agree with that.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2266 by nwr, posted 03-15-2023 8:07 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2286 of 3694 (909560)
04-05-2023 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2285 by Dredge
04-05-2023 6:48 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Science is methodological naturalism, and
according to you - an atheist - "reality" is methodological naturalism.
Gawd you are just sooo classless. Is there ANYTHING you can't screw up?
Science is not an ontology, it is an epistemology.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2285 by Dredge, posted 04-05-2023 6:48 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2287 by Dredge, posted 04-05-2023 7:18 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 2289 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2023 10:14 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2290 of 3694 (909639)
04-07-2023 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2289 by Dredge
04-07-2023 10:14 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
One is the study of the nature of what you may/do find, the other is the study of the ways of finding.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2289 by Dredge, posted 04-07-2023 10:14 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2295 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2023 1:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2296 of 3694 (909660)
04-08-2023 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2294 by Dredge
04-08-2023 1:23 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
How do you determine what "reality" is?
Test it.
There is an entire philosophy dedicated to doing just that. It is called science.
But, you knew that already.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2294 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2023 1:23 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2297 of 3694 (909661)
04-08-2023 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 2295 by Dredge
04-08-2023 1:58 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
If the latter (reality) is determined by the former (science), they're the same thing and you have a tautology.
Science determines reality? Altar Boy, are you really this dense? Way too many crackers.
The reality is there sitting in the dark doing what reality does. Science shines a light on it.
That you cannot perceive the difference is part of your mental religious disconnect.
Science does not determine reality. Science reveals it.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2295 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2023 1:58 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2300 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2023 6:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2302 of 3694 (909703)
04-08-2023 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2300 by Dredge
04-08-2023 6:40 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
If the latter (reality) is defined by the former (science) ...
It isn't.
'defined by' is no better than 'determined by'. You went to school in the south, didn't you? Home schooled I would guess.
Try a different word like explains or exposes. Better yet, leave it at reveals.
Science doesn't impose structure on reality, like the words make, define or determine imply. Science can only show reality, expose it, reveal its nature, content and operation.
If you go back to school to learn actual words and their meanings then do stop off in paleontology and see those fossils you say aren't there.
How do you define reality? Let me guess ... by whatever science can perceive?
Now you're getting there. Science is our tool, our technique, for revealing the reality of this universe. You shouldn't be at all surprised when it reveals results. That's it's job.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2300 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2023 6:40 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2355 of 3694 (910612)
04-28-2023 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2349 by GDR
04-28-2023 4:55 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I agree, but how do you know whether that process is by design or by chance.
Design or natural processes? Majik or chemistry?
We have reason to hypothesize that the ‘design’ argument leaves different marks on the universe then natural processes. The interactions of particles and energy gradients is very well understood. We can see quite deep into the workings, the ebb and flow of energy, in this universe. There does not appear to be anything but what is naturally expected on both the largest and smallest cosmic scales.
If there were a designer it’s work is indistinguishable from nature. Spinoza?
But you go beyond just ‘designer’. You want to go to gods. You want to say the very operations of nature, the operations we have modeled, the equations we consider ‘laws of nature’ are god determined, god driven and so intervening and mucking about and covering it up is child’s (god’s) play.
I still can’t see where that differs any from the natural we already know. This universe appears just as it coulda/shoulda/woulda if all there is, is nature. There is no reason, no need, to suppose such a god thing. The god meme has no reason to exist. It doesn’t do anything.
You want to see spooky consciously deliberate actions and influences in its workings. But nature appears to be only capable of being nature and doing natural things. It may be spooky seen in ignorance but nature doesn’t do consciously deliberate spooky things.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2349 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 4:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2364 by GDR, posted 05-01-2023 4:49 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2359 of 3694 (910618)
04-28-2023 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2357 by GDR
04-28-2023 7:24 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Sure, but that doesn't explain why the possibility of those chance occurrences exist at all.
Are you really asking 'why' there is a 'possibility' of an electron potential spike that breaks a molecular bond when it gets hit by a stray gamma-ray? Are you asking 'why' the gamma-ray has the 'possibility' for such energy to zap the electron so hard as to break the bond in a DNA strand? Are you asking 'why' the gamma-ray has a 'possibility' it was there in that place at that time to cause a mutation?
Do you know what you are asking? I don't.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2357 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 7:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2367 by GDR, posted 05-01-2023 5:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2360 of 3694 (910619)
04-28-2023 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2356 by GDR
04-28-2023 7:20 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Of course that isn't scientific but it goes beyond what science can examine or test, regardless of how many processes it is able to research.
We call that intransigence. And you’re wrong, science knows it well.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2356 by GDR, posted 04-28-2023 7:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2368 by GDR, posted 05-01-2023 5:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 2366 of 3694 (910643)
05-01-2023 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2364 by GDR
05-01-2023 4:49 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
In my view that all of this could be the result of nothing but mindless processes on their own, without at the very least an intelligent initiator is nuts.
Personal incredulity. It means nothing. It has not force with reality.
The only evidence available is overwhelming. There are only natural process at work in this universe. Any contention to the contrary is without evidence or reason and is emotional fantasy.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2364 by GDR, posted 05-01-2023 4:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2385 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2369 of 3694 (910646)
05-01-2023 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2367 by GDR
05-01-2023 5:06 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I am talking about the formation of conscious life.
Maybe so, but Tangles message you were responding to in your Message 2357 was about mutations. You seem to think such mutations need some reason to occur. The mutation itself is quite random and doesn't need any reason for its possibilities.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2367 by GDR, posted 05-01-2023 5:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2371 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 6:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2386 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:26 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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