Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2236 of 3694 (908235)
03-09-2023 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2229 by Tangle
03-07-2023 2:37 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
If empathy is not a biological function how exactly does it work? We know of NO human or animal reaction that is not biology. 10 minutes googling the neuroscience of empathy get's you a lifetimes worth of reading. But you just 'disagree' - no explanation necessary.
Sure, that is all we can physically examine.
Here is the headline for the article you lionked.
"How we empathize with others: A neurobiological perspective."
It starts out with the word "How". My understanding of biology borders on nil, so I'll accept that paper as correct. However, what the paper doesn't and can't answer, is why those processes exist in the first place, nor can it tell whether or not there is an external non-material influence, (amongst many others), on the thoughts that are formed.
Tangle writes:

"Neuroscience has identified brain structures and functions that correlate with psychopathic tendencies."
I don't disagree. Brain damage or abnormalities can cause abnormal behaviour. We're designed with two functioning legs. If we break both of them we can't walk properly.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2229 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 2:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2238 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2023 3:47 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2239 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2023 7:46 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2241 by Taq, posted 03-10-2023 3:39 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2243 of 3694 (908372)
03-13-2023 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2237 by PaulK
03-09-2023 3:17 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
You just keep repeating the same old argument by showing how they exist without explaining why the exist in the first place. It's, once again, like saying that there is no intelligent origin to a robotic assembly line
PaulK writes:
You assume that, but it isn’t true. The “how” can be the only “why”. In the case of morality, for instance, that appears to be the case - there’s nothing more needed.
How do you know that? How do you know what influences an individuals thought, let alone their morality. I don't claim that there is physical evidence for an external influence but I do contend that the evidenced is simply the fact that altruism and empathy exist at all in life that has simply evolved from mindless matter. You contend and believe otherwise and we know that.
GDR writes:
And again, that is confusing the benefits of co-operation with empathy and altruism.
PaulK writes:
But they are closely connected. Altruism is a part of cooperation, and empathy is incredibly helpful to a social species. Including gaining the benefits of cooperation.
Yes, co-operation can be very beneficial which is hardly the same thing as altruism. Altruism requires the one who is altruistic to lose personal benefits for the good of others with no expectation of any personal benefit. Why does anyone care about, let alone have empathy for someone, possibly in the third world that we have never met, and can never be of benefit in return. Why should we go so far as to sacrifice our resources for that person or group? In many cases, from a self centred point of view we would be better off if they didn't exist, and their resources would be available to one's own co-operating group.
PaulK writes:
Making your ideas unfalsifiable is simply a way of avoiding the truth. If there is no evidence of external influence - and no need for it - why should we assume it is there?
If there is an external invisible influence that is part of our existence then how would we know that there is no need for it.? Also, if there is an external intelligence that is the first cause for life then there is an obvious need for it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2237 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2023 3:17 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2244 by Taq, posted 03-13-2023 3:33 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2245 of 3694 (908385)
03-13-2023 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2238 by Tangle
03-09-2023 3:47 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
So please, please don't deny what is accepted science before you check whether it is.
But it isn't about the science. It is about what there is in addition to the science. The science is about brain scans and what can be observed. They show thoughts forming and where brain damage can alter behaviour. (I'm assuming that to be correct.) However it doesn't show what life experience, or other inputs there were that caused the thoughts in the first place.
Tangle writes:
But we're not talking of the purely mechanical are we? We're talking about being able to hear the small voice of god. (You're really resisting this aren't you?)

I think you have a problem. If you accept that some people can't hear this still, small voice because of an abnormality, injury (or drug) you are accepting that it is actually a physical thing, not a supernatural thing.

You also accept that some people can't hear it for no fault of their own - which to my mind doesn't seem terribly god-like or fair.

Isn't it more likely to be what we say it is and have stacks of evidence for - another evolved trait rather than something that, to be frank is just bonkers, unevidenced and unprovable?

Why do you have to resist actual knowledge? You can still believe in your god, why do this, you can only lose as we get more and more facts?
You are twisting what I say into something I'm not saying to suit your polemic.
I'll try another way. Your mother tells you not to do drugs. You have the choice to heed the advice or ignore it. Will a brain scan pick up the fact that your mom gave you that advice? In the same way that you can ignore your Mom's influence you can choose to ignore God's influence, neither voice can be identified as such on a brain scan. Also of course, brain damage can impact your ability to be positively affected by the advice of God or Mother.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2238 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2023 3:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2253 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2023 4:51 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2246 of 3694 (908386)
03-13-2023 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2239 by AZPaul3
03-09-2023 7:46 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
The paper provides an answer to evolution of emotions. You really expect a paper about the reality of the universe to answer questions about your unevidenced majik? Why should anyone have to explain your fantasies?

That we cannot prove/disprove your dreams does not lend them any credence at all. There is still nothing there, GDR. That you think there is, that's the fantasy, your mental disconnect from reality. That is the poison of religious thought.
I have largely answered this in my post to Tangle above. However, I did read that paper and boiled down it describes how we are affected by the empathic behaviour of others. I absolutely agree with that. However I would also point out that our thinking is affected by the selfish behaviour of others. There are numerous non-detectable influences that go into forming our thoughts and actions.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2239 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2023 7:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2250 by AZPaul3, posted 03-13-2023 9:19 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2247 of 3694 (908388)
03-13-2023 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2240 by Stile
03-10-2023 2:29 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
[qs=Stile]It is getting old. But I keep saying it because I haven't yet understood a response that makes it invalid. You keep making attempts like this:[/qs[
Yes, because you want me to show physical evidence when I agree that physical doesn't exist. It is primarily a simple matter of pondering on our life and the world we live in. I contend that it strongly appears to be the result of an external intelligence. You don't think it does, and reject my conclusions.
Stile writes:
But if we look at life... we see no hint of any intelligence working on it, developing it or creating it.
In fact... if there was anyone developing it, we can see many, many places where they did things horribly, terribly stupid and wrong.
Life is not minimally complex but maximally complex - that is, it's complex to the point of not even being able to use some of it's own functionality because it gets too complex. And it does fall into a nested hierarchy - which screams "no intelligence here!" when identifying if an intelligent design process was used.

We specifically look for a designer - and not only do we not find one, but we find overwhelming indications that no designer was within light years of these processes.

I keep using the same old response.. because you as-of-yet are unable to answer it.
Because, there is no answer. You assume that conscious life emerged from mindless base elements. Personally I can't muster up the faith to see that as being in any way plausible.
Stile writes:

We accept that knowledge is tentative for running water and cars starting. You just don't seem to want to accept that knowledge is tentative for the evolution of humanity.
But I do accept the evolution of humanity. I simply see that it is the result of an external intelligence as a first cause.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2240 by Stile, posted 03-10-2023 2:29 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2251 by Omnivorous, posted 03-13-2023 10:05 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2256 by Stile, posted 03-14-2023 9:04 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2248 of 3694 (908389)
03-13-2023 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2241 by Taq
03-10-2023 3:39 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Taq writes:
If you want to push Dualism into the realm of reason then you need to supply some positive evidence for the supernatural. It isn't enough to claim that there isn't any evidence against the unfalsifiable.
My evidence is that conscious life as we know it exists. I guess we can all make of that what we want.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2241 by Taq, posted 03-10-2023 3:39 PM Taq has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2249 of 3694 (908390)
03-13-2023 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2244 by Taq
03-13-2023 3:33 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Taq writes:
Do you hold the same or all of nature? How do you know what influences weather, or bacterial infections? How do you know what influences evidence at crime scenes? Could the Holy Spirit change DNA and fingerprints at crime scenes? If so, can we just believe any person is guilty, or not guilty?
I'm guessing that science can do all of the above. Should we reject that the evidence can ever positively conclude a guilty or not guilty.
Personally I don't see the Holy Spirit having an impact on any of that. Sure, I believe that weather and bacterial infections happen naturally.
Taq writes:
That type of altruism is seen in many eusocial insects, like bees and ants. In the same way, altruism promotes the continuation of the species, and more immediately of closely related individuals. Given that humans evolved in a more small tribal structure it makes sense that we would feel altruism because that would have had a high chance of pushing our genes forward, even if they are genes found in those related to us. This evolved sense of altruism can then extend to many people.
Sure, so what. I see God's plan for altruistic behaviour to be spread includes altruistic people having an impact on the thinking of others.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2244 by Taq, posted 03-13-2023 3:33 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2260 by Taq, posted 03-14-2023 6:19 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2252 of 3694 (908394)
03-14-2023 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2250 by AZPaul3
03-13-2023 9:19 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
BTW. Non-detectable means not detected yet. Will find 'em.
Science of the Gaps yet again.
AZPaul3 writes:
All such influences we can identify are physical. We have no reason to suppose anything other. Religiously motivated what-ifs and maybe’s don’t count … anymore. There are no justifiable reasons to entertain such notions.
Again, how can you physically tell me by a brain scan what caused a person to act in a certain way. You might guess it was become something a parent said, something that they read, observing what someone else has done or reacted to the still small voce of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2250 by AZPaul3, posted 03-13-2023 9:19 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2257 by Stile, posted 03-14-2023 9:11 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2261 by AZPaul3, posted 03-14-2023 8:28 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2263 of 3694 (908445)
03-15-2023 7:10 PM


I owe a response to a number of you and I aopologise for not getting to them. There is just a lot going on right now and as of today I have family visiting.
However, I stumbled on a CS Lewis quote, and who saw this coming, but he is far more able than I am to get his point of view across. So here i the quote.
quote:
‘If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milkjug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 2264 by AZPaul3, posted 03-15-2023 7:33 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2265 by AZPaul3, posted 03-15-2023 7:45 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2266 by nwr, posted 03-15-2023 8:07 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2270 by Tangle, posted 03-16-2023 3:38 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2276 of 3694 (909363)
04-01-2023 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2253 by Tangle
03-14-2023 4:51 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
This doesn't make much sense to me. Our brains store life experiences and are conditioned by them.

Are you trying to tell us that this god of yours is directly causing our thoughts and motivations minute by minute?
No, I'm contending that this so called still small voice of God is there influencing us to do the right and loving thing just as there are other natural influences and desires influencing us to do the selfish thing.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2253 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2023 4:51 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2280 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2023 4:27 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2277 of 3694 (909364)
04-01-2023 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2256 by Stile
03-14-2023 9:04 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
You seem to want to re-frame this into a my opinion vs your opinion thing.
My opinion actually agrees with you - I think an external intelligence for life would be a very good answer. It has the potential to explain a lot of things.
The thing is - reality doesn't care about opinions or imagination - not mine, and not yours.
Reality is whatever it is.
And reality is telling us that no external intelligence exists.
A man commits suicide. We might look at things in his life to try and figure out why, but other than for mental illness or damage to the brain it is simply surmising. We can never know for sure what triggered his action but whatever it was it was real, without material evidence.
I simply see that the most likely cause for the fact that we can rise above selfishness, or like I said previously the survival of the fittest is an external influence. Of course I don't have nard evidence but I do contend that it is the most likely answer.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2256 by Stile, posted 03-14-2023 9:04 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2283 by Stile, posted 04-04-2023 8:19 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2278 of 3694 (909365)
04-01-2023 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2257 by Stile
03-14-2023 9:11 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Historical result of Science of the Gaps - Science develops better technology to study the concept, learns more about the natural process, advances human knowledge, no external intelligence is ever found.

Historical result of God of the Gaps - No one ever looks any further, nothing is ever learned, human knowledge stagnates, no external intelligence is ever found.

Science of the Gaps is actually a strength of science - not a weakness.
It identifies areas of further study, and we end up learning more.

God of the Gaps is, well, exactly what you think it is.

The only reason you could possibly think that "not knowing something" is a weakness - is if you have a historical record of being unable to learn new things due to a personal issue of clinging to tradition regardless of it's veracity.

In science - "not knowing something" is an exciting opportunity. It means we're about to learn something. And we always do. We just never find an external intelligence, is all.
No real problem with any of that. I agree that science should go on investigating without giving a thought to any possible supernatural explanation. Where I do have a problem with science of the gaps thinking is when it is assumed that what can be examined materially will always ultimately provide and answer to a problem. I do have a problem that when we look at processes such as evolution, and conclude that the reason for its existence is the fact that it exists.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2257 by Stile, posted 03-14-2023 9:11 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2284 by Stile, posted 04-04-2023 9:01 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2291 of 3694 (909654)
04-07-2023 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2280 by Tangle
04-02-2023 4:27 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
No, I'm contending that this so called still small voice of God is there influencing us to do the right and loving thing just as there are other natural influences and desires influencing us to do the selfish thing.
Tangle writes:
I still don't understand. How is your god influencing us if he's not directly influencing us?
We have numerous influences in our lives, some more subtle than others. Say that we observe someone dropping a wad money on the sidewalk. Do we run after him to return it or do we just happily jam it into our pocket.
There are no doubt numerous influences and experiences that pull is in one direction or the other. I am simply saying that the still small voice of God is one that would prompt us to run after they guy and return the money.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2280 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2023 4:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2299 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2023 3:30 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2292 of 3694 (909655)
04-07-2023 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2283 by Stile
04-04-2023 8:19 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Like anything in the past.
We may not be able to find evidence, or perhaps we can.

Maybe there's a note detailing exactly what he was feeling and why he committed suicide.
Maybe he was very close with his wife and therapist and was denied assisted-suicide from the government and it's clear he decided to take matters into his own hands anyway.

There can be lots of evidence on why he committed suicide.
Or none.

None of this points in the direction of a God in any way.

Just like finding a gucci bag in the middle of the jungle.
There might be lots of evidence why it's there - like flight overhead reporting a malfunction and lost luggage. Or, perhaps there is no evidence.

Regardless - a gucci bag in the middle of the jungle does not support God existing.
Regardless - a man committing suicide does not support God existing.
I'm not saying that it points to God. I'm saying that we can only surmise what causes people to do what they do. I do contend that the most likely probability for us being able to rise above evolutionary forces is an external non-material influence. I don't know that I'm correct and know that I can't point to any material evidence that I am correct, but I strongly believe it to be true. Philosophical; evidence, unlike scientific evidence can't conclusive b ut we can learn from the philosophers just the same.
Stile writes:
"I simply see that the most likely cause for the fact that gravity exists is tiny angels push things together. Of course I don't have any hard evidence but I do contend that it is the most likely answer."

And reality disagrees with you.

We have massive amounts of evidence showing us that objects with mass attract each other - simply because that's how things-with-mass work. No support for any God included.

We have massive amounts of evidence showing us that we can rise above selfishness due to natural processes and evolution. No support for any God included.

You can "see" or "contend" or "desire" or "want" or believe" or "need" the answer to be something else as much as you'd like.
It doesn't make the evidence go away.
It doesn't change reality.

You're paddling upstream... not only are you missing your paddle, you don't even have a boat!

Your ignorance of the knowledge we have on the situation doesn't lend credence to your position. It just shows that you're going to believe whatever it is you want to believe instead of following the truth we've learned about reality. Which, really, puts you in a majority position. But, again, that doesn't change reality either.
Sure our perceived reality exists and can often be verified but we can only surmise the answer to the question of why reality exists the way it does.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2283 by Stile, posted 04-04-2023 8:19 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2293 by PaulK, posted 04-08-2023 12:58 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2304 by Stile, posted 04-10-2023 9:05 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2306 of 3694 (909837)
04-11-2023 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2293 by PaulK
04-08-2023 12:58 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
But you haven’t shown any “rising” above “evolutionary forces”. All you’ve shown is that you misrepresent evolution and refuse to accept that you might be wrong. Clinging to - at best - wilful ignorance is not consistent with searching for the truth.
How have I misrepresented evolution? Darwin agreed that "survival of the fittest" accurately represented the evolutionary process.
Yes it is my belief that that there is an outside influence that allows us to rise above raw evolutionary forces. Of course I might be wrong.
PaulK writes:
Obviously the truth is far less important to you than your belief.
Nonsense. I believe that my views represent, at least roughly, the truth. Just as you do.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2293 by PaulK, posted 04-08-2023 12:58 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2308 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2023 12:04 AM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024