Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2169 of 3694 (907821)
02-28-2023 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2167 by Stile
02-28-2023 10:15 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Your link, however, seems to make the same mistake most make when supporting the case that the religious are more generous.

It seems to equate "generosity" with "giving money to non-profit organizations." When, well, this isn't the case, is it? There's more to being generous than just giving your money to non-profits - especially if one's self uses the services of those same non-profit orgnaizations.

Check this out (2013): Are Religious People More Charitable, Generous, and Altruistic than Atheists?

It starts off by acknowledging that American religious states give more to charity than non-religious areas and states.

Then it's noted that "almost half of the charitable donations given by American households are to churches."
Good point, but money donated to a church is not just to keep the place going. Our little church was heavily involved in sponsoring 3 Syrian refugee families and maintaining them for a year, We have fund raisers to support the local food bank, hospital and a site that services the requirements of seniors. We have events for the community. Through our local church we donate to the national Anglicn fund that send aid around the world.
Of course that is just about the money. Parishoners also donate large amounts of their time for various charities. We have helped guys just out of prison to get re-established
Here is an interesting that doesn't actually support either of our positions.
Study finds differences in how secular and faith-based charities operate
Stile writes:
Being good for the sake of being good? Can't beat atheism!
Maybe atheistic charity involves getting recognition and approval. Who knows. Maybe Christian charity is about getting in good with God for some reward in the next life. I question whether either of those can be considered to be charity, and of course this won't show up in any set of statistics.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2167 by Stile, posted 02-28-2023 10:15 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2170 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2023 6:01 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2174 by Stile, posted 03-02-2023 9:10 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2171 of 3694 (907912)
03-01-2023 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2168 by Tangle
02-28-2023 10:30 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
"I believe". [sigh] Like I say, nothing we can say can penetrate the shield of personal belief. Why are you here?
Nothing I can say can penetrate the shield of personal belief. Why are you here? It cuts both ways.
Actually I'm interested in the relationship between science and Christianity and when I joined the forum years ago that worked pretty well, but not so much now. It seems to have become simply a debate between entrenched beliefs.
Incidentally in response to a couple of posts my views are not at all tentative. My beliefs are fluid to a point as I'm not a literalist and see the Bible as being written by people with all of their biases and even agendas. As I said in a post to you recently it isn't important to me whether or not God created something from nothing but I do believe that God is responsible for life. I accept that God might be either a singular intelligence or a collective but consistent intelligence. I see the future on Earth as being completely open and completely unknowable, I simply see the next life as being a reality and that this life will have an impact on our life to come, but I don't worry about it and simply focus on God's request to love the other in this life.
I do see the church as in a period of reformation being led by people such as Polkinghorne, Wright and even Rob Bell. One of the big changes is the effort to understand scripture in context of the time and culture in which they were written and this is being aided by the discovery of more ancient material such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Hopefully we move away from trying to understand the Bible in the context of our own time and culture.
I don't get to London any more. I miss it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2168 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2023 10:30 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2172 by Tangle, posted 03-02-2023 3:28 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2173 by PaulK, posted 03-02-2023 4:10 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2176 of 3694 (907942)
03-02-2023 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2174 by Stile
03-02-2023 9:10 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Which seems to align with what my article was saying: That secular institutions will provide help to everyone equally, and religious groups are much more likely to discriminate and only help those who are a part of their particular religion.
Firstly I donate to both secular and religious charities. When our church brought in and supported Syrian refugees to Canada we didn't ask about their religious beliefs. Two of the three families were Islamic.
Stile writes:
If you'd like to agree that being religious does not change one's actions and ideas any more than being atheist does - then I certainly agree.
The only reason I started down this route was because you seemed to indicate that being religious provided a certain outlook on life that wasn't obtainable otherwise. This is clearly bogus.
Well I can say that becoming Christian certainly changed my outlook on life and on charitable giving.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2174 by Stile, posted 03-02-2023 9:10 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2180 by Stile, posted 03-03-2023 8:33 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2177 of 3694 (907945)
03-02-2023 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2172 by Tangle
03-02-2023 3:28 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
This is just Anglicanism and it's simply a way of the Church trying to stay relevant in societies that are rejecting it. Making up a gentler belief system isn't working though is it? People are abandoning it in two directions; in the West it's towards atheism, agnosticism and general disinterest and in the developing countries (and USA) it's moving towards fundamentalism.

Justin Welby, your 'pope', has just been rejected by 25% of the Anglican community over blessing homosexual partnerships. ('Blessing' for god's sake! How primitive is that?). The history of your belief system is riddled with schism because it's based on nothing but what individuals prefer to believe at any one time.
Frankly in my view that is a strength. I don't want a church where there is no room for disagreement. I know that I am not in agreement on many issues with other Anglicans and that is ok. Hopefully after discussing views we can learn from each other.
NT Wright often says that about a third of what he teaches is wrong. The problem being that he doesn't know which third it is. I'm in the same boat except that the percentage is undoubtedly much higher and no doubt you believe that 30% to be 100% in my case.
Frankly my views are often changing as I read a fair bit of theology by people much brighter than yours truly, including at times on this forum.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2172 by Tangle, posted 03-02-2023 3:28 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2178 by Tangle, posted 03-03-2023 3:15 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2184 of 3694 (907981)
03-04-2023 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2178 by Tangle
03-03-2023 3:15 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
There is no room for disagreement within dogma. A belief is a belief. That's why 25% of your church has just split from it and rejected its leader over same sex blessings. Note not even marriages. The nice European Anglicans actually want to perform same sex marriages but that is totally politically impossible.

That's why there are over 30,000 different ‘Christian’ belief systems. You all have individual beliefs and coalesce around them. You make it up to suit.
It isn't about dogma. Here is the definition of dogma. "A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true."
I would suggest that there is only a very small part of the Christian church that sees there faith and beliefs as incontrovertibly true.
The point of this thread was to make the point that it isn't the name of the deity that we serve, but the nature of the deity we serve. We have seen Christians prepared to start wars and we have seen Muslims, Hindus, atheists etc fight for love and peace. My belief is in a deity that loves and cares for us and wants us to reflect that same love into the world.
Yes, I do see Jesus as being an example of one that perfectly modelled the nature of God, and I see confirmation in that in the belief that God resurrected Him. Yes, I believe the Gospel accounts of His resurrection, while acknowledging minor difference in the accounts, all affirming the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Still the clear and important part is God's loving and peaceful nature, and His wanting us to emulate that regardless of doctrine.
Tangle writes:
But your views are based only on what you prefer to believe, not on fact. You completely ignore arguments that threaten your belief, they have no effect. Your core beliefs can't be touched because they're not formed from evidence they're formed a personal belief that you speak with god. All the rest is irrelevant.
I don't ignore arguments that threaten my belief I simply don't agree with the conclusions drawn from those arguments. However, in some cases they have altered my views.
You and others generally say that you have no beliefs, so you really have no position to defend. You simply reject the views and beliefs of others. Kinda the easy way out. However you still presumably have a world view of life based on something. Do you believe that your world view to be true?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2178 by Tangle, posted 03-03-2023 3:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2186 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2023 2:19 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2189 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2023 6:05 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2191 by nwr, posted 03-04-2023 6:58 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2192 by Tangle, posted 03-05-2023 4:22 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2185 of 3694 (907982)
03-04-2023 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2180 by Stile
03-03-2023 8:33 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
It's almost like people are all individuals, each with their own personal subjective ways to achieve the same subjective levels of spiritual enlightenment. All without any external intelligence or God acting on any of them at all.
How do you know that God doesn't influence your thoughts? How do you know that the still small but intangible voice of God isn't influencing you?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2180 by Stile, posted 03-03-2023 8:33 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2187 by AZPaul3, posted 03-04-2023 3:14 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2188 by nwr, posted 03-04-2023 4:06 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2215 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 8:34 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2202 of 3694 (908039)
03-05-2023 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2187 by AZPaul3
03-04-2023 3:14 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
What makes you think it has? What makes you think it can?

Other than your wishful thinking, why does this thought exist? Is there anything to indicate that such is possible?
I know this answer won't work for you, but I believe that without it I would be completely self centred and care only about my own survival and well-being.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2187 by AZPaul3, posted 03-04-2023 3:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2203 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2023 7:57 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2204 of 3694 (908041)
03-05-2023 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2188 by nwr
03-04-2023 4:06 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
nwr writes:
I don't know. So what?

There isn't anything I can do about it, so it doesn't seem to matter one way or the other.
I suggest that it is healthy to know that when you sacrifice your own resources for a stranger that it is not all on account of you being a good guy.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2188 by nwr, posted 03-04-2023 4:06 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2205 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2023 8:01 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2206 of 3694 (908043)
03-05-2023 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2191 by nwr
03-04-2023 6:58 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
nwr writes:
Resisting peer pressure does not seem like an "easy way out."
I live in a secular world. I would bet that it isn't much different in Illinois that there is far more pressure to be Secular than there is to be a Christian.
You might want to simply consider this forum.
nwr writes:
I don't see a world view (if there is such a thing) as either true or false. There is no standard by which its truth or falsity can be judged.
Fair enough but I am sure that you believe that some things are absolutely wrong and somethings are absolutely right and that is your standard, regardless of whether or not there is a universal standard.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2191 by nwr, posted 03-04-2023 6:58 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2209 by nwr, posted 03-05-2023 9:38 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2207 of 3694 (908044)
03-05-2023 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2192 by Tangle
03-05-2023 4:22 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Of course we have beliefs! We're not bloody androids; atheists are fully featured humans with the same set of emotions and feelings that you have. WE JUST DON'T BELIEVE IN GODS. You know, exactly like we don't believe if fairies. It has exactly the same effect and meaning in our lives as not believing in elves - ie none whatsoever. I wish you guys could absorb that fact.
Frankly I don't understand for the world why this matters to you. I would add that I don't believe in the tooth fairy, but put another way I do believe that the tooth fairy doesn't exist.
Tangle writes:
But generally, I think you'll find that going along with the flow is a helluva lot easier than fighting against it.
Both of our cultures are secular. Being Christain requires you to go against the flow.
Percy writes:
Look, people are complicated things, they have complex and contradictory ideas about life that religions try to organise for them. It's simple to have a 'world view' when your life is governed by an all seeing, retribution driven, dictator that 'loves' you and a human theistic belief structure to handle the human side of things.
I don't see religions, (at least mine at any rate) as trying to organize my ideas. You have already pointed out, that there are multiple contradictory views amongst Christians.
Tangle writes:
I could go on, but you could sum it up with "I believe in 'do as you would be done by' but do it by building strong, independent, secular institutions to make it happen".
No problem with that except I don't much care whether the institution is secular or Christian. I am simply interested who will do it best, or for that matter who will do it at all.
Tangle writes:
No god is going to step in and actually do something to help, ie fix everything he broke 'in the beginning'.
No, but hopefully He will inspire people to step in and help.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2192 by Tangle, posted 03-05-2023 4:22 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2210 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2023 3:15 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2208 of 3694 (908045)
03-05-2023 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2205 by AZPaul3
03-05-2023 8:01 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Very good. Yes that is right. No god necessary for a good soul to do good.
Good gotcha! Edited post

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2205 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2023 8:01 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 2212 of 3694 (908071)
03-06-2023 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2210 by Tangle
03-06-2023 3:15 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
It matters to me because you said that atheists have no beliefs, implying that we are amoral. You say it again more directly here.
I have stated in other posts many times that I don't hold that view at all.
Tangle writes:
You say it again more directly here.
GDR writes:
I believe that without it I would be completely self centred and care only about my own survival and well-being.
That is not what I was saying. That has nothing to do with my Christian beliefs. I believe that the "still small voice of God" is universal and it impacts both Tangle and GDR. It is my unevidenced belief that without that God meme we would be left without those qualities. That statement had nothing to do with any particular religious belief or lack of any religious belief.
Tangle writes:
You don't think Christianity tries to organise your ideas? You're kidding - that's all it does! ‘ Give me a child till he is seven years old,’ said St Ignatius Loyola, ‘ and I will show you the man.’ It's indoctrination from birth and reinforcement until death.
My point was simply that I don't believe in the tooth fairy so by extension I do believe that the tooth fairy doesn't exist. Why do you have a problem when you say that as you don't believe that there is a god that you believe that a God doesn't exist It baffles me.
Apparently you were taken to church as a child and here you are an atheist. Yes, youi can certainly experience reinforcement within the church but not outside it. As a matter of fact in our secular societies we are more subject to an indoctrination that side lines churches.
Tangle writes:
You don't care whether we have a theocracy or not? Are you mad? Look around the world and look how well theocracies are doing right now. Look back at how they worked in the past. There's a reason for the separation of church and state and you should know it.
Yes, the separation of church and state is important, for both church and state. However that shouldn't mean that people of any faith should be excluded from government office. A theocracy is a disaster for both church and state.
Tangle writes:
Yeh, that's worked really well so far hasn't it?
Look, we need secular institutions because man was NOT made by a god that loves us. We need independent institutions to protect us from our worst instincts of individual hate and greed and lever our better collective instincts for the greater good of all. Something that would not be necessary at all if the god you believe in actually existed.
I agree with all of that except the last sentence, and that we have gone over several times. Some times though private or church based institutions can do a better job of social issues than can government. I mentioned this earlier but our Anglican diocese worked very hard with volunteer work to bring and support Syrian refugees to our area. My own little church was heavily involved in bringing over 3 families. The government bureaucracy seeing work being done by unpaid volunteers decided to make it much more difficult and as a result our diocese had to drop the program and now it has dried up with no one doing it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2210 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2023 3:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2213 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 3:09 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2226 of 3694 (908108)
03-07-2023 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2213 by Tangle
03-07-2023 3:09 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
But why do you need an unevidenced belief for that? Without biological functions such as empathy we KNOW that you would be self-centred and manipulative. We call the people with that medical condition psychopaths and we know the brain functions that are missing. Why call a biological mechanism that we can actually see working or not working the voice of god? Don't you think that's just plain primitive?

If it is the voice of god, why is it missing in some people?
I disagree that empathy is a biological function. You can describe a history of the rise, and decline for that matter, of empathy within cultures. That however is not evidence that empathy is a biological function.
I also don't agree that the still small voice of god is missing in some. It can absolutely be drowned out by all of the other influences that we are subject to, or by mental illness for that matter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2213 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 3:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2229 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 2:37 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2227 of 3694 (908110)
03-07-2023 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2215 by Stile
03-07-2023 8:34 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Because we've looked for any changes on people that would indicate that God is influencing their thoughts.
And we've never found anything that links such a claim to reality. Just normal natural people doing normal natural things.
Is there a universal standard for what is natural or for what constitutes normal people?
Wouldn't normal be looking out for number one?
Stile writes:
Because I've looked, and found nothing to suggest such a thing.

I'm willing to be shown to be wrong - feel free to suggest how God is influencing me or my thoughts.
All I ask is that you link it to reality.
Again, you seem to be the arbiter of what of what constitutes reality, as you do with the question of normal behaviour.
If we are simply the result of mindless processes from mindless material then why do you insist on there being any norms at all?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2215 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 8:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2228 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 2:29 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2235 of 3694 (908233)
03-09-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2228 by Stile
03-07-2023 2:29 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Yes - when we discover what makes things work the way they do without finding any supernatural aspect to it.

We didn't have to discover gravity - we could have discovered tiny angels pushing everything down. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover weather patterns - we could have discovered saints that controlled the weather. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover plate tectonics - we could have discovered demons responsible for earthquakes. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover evolution - we could have discovered God creating animals/humans/everything from scratch. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover the evolution of society - we could have discovered that societies came from the Tower of Babel, assigned by God. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover the evolution of morality - we could have discovered that empathy only existed in humans, placed there by God. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.

When we discover what makes things work the way they do without finding any supernatural aspect to it - it shows that it's from being natural and normal people.
You just keep repeating the same old argument by showing how they exist without explaining why the exist in the first place. It's, once again, like saying that there is no intelligent origin to a robotic assembly line.
Stile writes:
Yes - and evolution did that too. But they died out. Turns out if you look out for others, your society is better able to adapt to your environment than the ones that only look out for number one. So, the "only number one's" died out. Our ancestors killed them. And the more social species continued. Evolution!
And again, that is confusing the benefits of co-operation with empathy and altruism. Evolution on it's own leads to wolves enjoying the benefits of hunting in a pack to take down a prey, and then fighting over the spoils.
Stile writes:
You're the one who uses your "common sense" to try and define reality, even when reality says you're wrong - remember the millions of papers of evidence showing that you're wrong?
What paper. You can show me a paper like tangle does that shows how empathy and altruism evolved in humans, (and other animals too), but that does not answer the question of whether or not those characteristics were externally influenced or not.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2228 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 2:29 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2237 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2023 3:17 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2240 by Stile, posted 03-10-2023 2:29 PM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024