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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2221 of 3694 (908099)
03-07-2023 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2220 by Phat
03-07-2023 12:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
Bullshit. If you ever believed as I believe, you would have questioned. Perhaps more than I do, even. But you would have never thrown God away. And yet you did. Get that through your bloody head!
Phat, you're a moron. I thought I had more to say, but that covers it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2220 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2222 of 3694 (908100)
03-07-2023 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2219 by Tangle
03-07-2023 12:24 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
t's been explained to you many times that many of us here believed the entire story, the whole bloody caboodle, the whole god whispering nonsense. Then we didn't.
Silly rabbit. Nobody believes the whole story. The question is which parts one chooses to keep.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2219 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 12:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2223 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 1:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2230 by Parasomnium, posted 03-07-2023 3:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2223 of 3694 (908105)
03-07-2023 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2222 by Phat
03-07-2023 12:53 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Moron writes:
Silly rabbit. Nobody believes the whole story. The question is which parts one chooses to keep.
I believed the entirety of it. All of it. Get over yourself, you can not know what I felt and believed. I'm telling you I believed it as much as anyone could - no exceptions. From what you say, you have less of a believe than I did. Now ain't that a howler...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2222 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 2224 of 3694 (908106)
03-07-2023 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2220 by Phat
03-07-2023 12:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
If you ever believed as I believe, you would have questioned.
Oh, we did question. That's why we no longer believe.
It turns out that "Because God is with everyone" is indistinguishable from "there is no God." And if I cannot tell the difference, why bother with a useless belief.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity --> -->

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2220 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2233 by Phat, posted 03-09-2023 2:14 AM nwr has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 2225 of 3694 (908107)
03-07-2023 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2220 by Phat
03-07-2023 12:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
If you ever believed as I believe, you would have questioned. Perhaps more than I do, even. But you would have never thrown God away.
Seems to me that we believed more than you.
We had so much Faith, that we believed no question could ever do any harm to God. How could it?
So, we asked the questions.
Not being willing to question your God means you have less Faith in His ability to provide good answers. It's a sign of insecurity.

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2226 of 3694 (908108)
03-07-2023 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2213 by Tangle
03-07-2023 3:09 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
But why do you need an unevidenced belief for that? Without biological functions such as empathy we KNOW that you would be self-centred and manipulative. We call the people with that medical condition psychopaths and we know the brain functions that are missing. Why call a biological mechanism that we can actually see working or not working the voice of god? Don't you think that's just plain primitive?

If it is the voice of god, why is it missing in some people?
I disagree that empathy is a biological function. You can describe a history of the rise, and decline for that matter, of empathy within cultures. That however is not evidence that empathy is a biological function.
I also don't agree that the still small voice of god is missing in some. It can absolutely be drowned out by all of the other influences that we are subject to, or by mental illness for that matter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2213 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 3:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2229 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 2:37 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2227 of 3694 (908110)
03-07-2023 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2215 by Stile
03-07-2023 8:34 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Because we've looked for any changes on people that would indicate that God is influencing their thoughts.
And we've never found anything that links such a claim to reality. Just normal natural people doing normal natural things.
Is there a universal standard for what is natural or for what constitutes normal people?
Wouldn't normal be looking out for number one?
Stile writes:
Because I've looked, and found nothing to suggest such a thing.

I'm willing to be shown to be wrong - feel free to suggest how God is influencing me or my thoughts.
All I ask is that you link it to reality.
Again, you seem to be the arbiter of what of what constitutes reality, as you do with the question of normal behaviour.
If we are simply the result of mindless processes from mindless material then why do you insist on there being any norms at all?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2215 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 8:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2228 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 2:29 PM GDR has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 2228 of 3694 (908115)
03-07-2023 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2227 by GDR
03-07-2023 1:53 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Is there a universal standard for what is natural or for what constitutes normal people?
Yes - when we discover what makes things work the way they do without finding any supernatural aspect to it.
We didn't have to discover gravity - we could have discovered tiny angels pushing everything down. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover weather patterns - we could have discovered saints that controlled the weather. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover plate tectonics - we could have discovered demons responsible for earthquakes. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover evolution - we could have discovered God creating animals/humans/everything from scratch. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover the evolution of society - we could have discovered that societies came from the Tower of Babel, assigned by God. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover the evolution of morality - we could have discovered that empathy only existed in humans, placed there by God. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
When we discover what makes things work the way they do without finding any supernatural aspect to it - it shows that it's from being natural and normal people.
Wouldn't normal be looking out for number one?
Yes - and evolution did that too. But they died out. Turns out if you look out for others, your society is better able to adapt to your environment than the ones that only look out for number one. So, the "only number one's" died out. Our ancestors killed them. And the more social species continued. Evolution!
Again, you seem to be the arbiter of what of what constitutes reality, as you do with the question of normal behaviour.
How so?
All I try to do is compare my thoughts against the facts we find in reality.
When they match - I assume my thoughts are valid.
When they don't match - I assume my thoughts are wrong.
You're the one who uses your "common sense" to try and define reality, even when reality says you're wrong - remember the millions of papers of evidence showing that you're wrong?
If we are simply the result of mindless processes from mindless material then why do you insist on there being any norms at all?
The only thing I insist on is that our ideas of "what is true" match the results we find in reality.
If you can show how I'm not following that rule - then you can show me and I can learn something.
If all you have is your own personal "common sense" or refusal to accept the facts we're able to identify... without being able to connect it to reality in any way - well, we already know that such ideas are terrible at identifying what's real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2227 by GDR, posted 03-07-2023 1:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2235 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:28 PM Stile has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2229 of 3694 (908116)
03-07-2023 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2226 by GDR
03-07-2023 1:44 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I disagree that empathy is a biological function. You can describe a history of the rise, and decline for that matter, of empathy within cultures. That however is not evidence that empathy is a biological function.
If empathy is not a biological function how exactly does it work? We know of NO human or animal reaction that is not biology. 10 minutes googling the neuroscience of empathy get's you a lifetimes worth of reading. But you just 'disagree' - no explanation necessary
How we empathize with others: A neurobiological perspective - PMC
I also don't agree that the still small voice of god is missing in some. It can absolutely be drowned out by all of the other influences that we are subject to, or by mental illness for that matter
Simple denial is not good enough
"Neuroscience has identified brain structures and functions that correlate with psychopathic tendencies."
https://www.frontiersin.org/...10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00294/full

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2226 by GDR, posted 03-07-2023 1:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2236 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 2230 of 3694 (908117)
03-07-2023 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2222 by Phat
03-07-2023 12:53 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
Nobody believes the whole story. The question is which parts one chooses to keep.
That is a very silly notion, Phat. Choosing to keep something and believing something are two very different things. Suppose the story goes that you can jump off of a cliff and that if you then flap your arms you will grow wings and safely land on your feet. If you choose to disregard the wing thing and to keep the safe landing part, good luck to you. It's just not how things work. Belief is not a matter of choice.
Added by edit: The above should not be misconstrued as me believing that flapping ones arms would really result in keeping one from ending up splattered at the bottom of the cliff. But you get my drift, no doubt.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2231 of 3694 (908125)
03-07-2023 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2214 by Stile
03-07-2023 8:31 AM


Re: SOURCE Writ Large
Good question. *sips coffee*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2214 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 8:31 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2232 by Stile, posted 03-08-2023 8:15 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 2232 of 3694 (908136)
03-08-2023 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2231 by Phat
03-07-2023 10:55 PM


Re: SOURCE Writ Large
My point wasn't to say that atheist faith vs. theist faith is better or worse.
My point is to say that comparing something subjective - like faith - is a bad argument to make, for anyone.
Where is the "faith measuring tape" to compare one's faith to another's?
You either take others at their word, or you accuse them of lying about themselves without any ground to support such an accusation.
It's up to you to decide which path a Christian would follow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2231 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 10:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2233 of 3694 (908154)
03-09-2023 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2224 by nwr
03-07-2023 1:19 PM


Whats The Difference?
nwr writes:
It turns out that "Because God is with everyone" is indistinguishable from "there is no God." And if I cannot tell the difference, why bother with a useless belief.
The belief is/was useless because God was only with you(or not) There is no difference between being with everyone on the planet and not existing. That much you understand.
What I'm talking about is the belief that God is actually in us. That God is with everyone yet is only "in" those who chose back. It never made sense to any of you because perhaps He was never invited into you. You did not see and you did not believe...beyond a certain point. I did. And when I did, the change was felt. I knew.
My numerous critics will challenge my claim. They always do. jar will ask me how would I know it was God and not a bad burrito. I knew. Ringo will accuse me of not doing what the message said to do. And I am guilty. None of you can climb inside my head(just as Tangle said about me judging him) but you likely will collectively say that without evidence I have no argument. And that is where the stalemate will remain for the likely life of EvC Forum, its members, and in regards to evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2224 by nwr, posted 03-07-2023 1:19 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2234 by nwr, posted 03-09-2023 10:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2234 of 3694 (908175)
03-09-2023 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2233 by Phat
03-09-2023 2:14 AM


Re: Whats The Difference?
It never made sense to any of you because perhaps He was never invited into you.
I was a Christian at one time, and it did seem to make sense to me. I left Christianity because so many people who called themselves "Christian" were not behaving as Christians should. Jesus said "By their fruits ye shall know them" but those fruits were not showing.
It was only after I had left Christianity, that I began to realize the absurdity of those beliefs.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity --> -->

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2233 by Phat, posted 03-09-2023 2:14 AM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2235 of 3694 (908233)
03-09-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2228 by Stile
03-07-2023 2:29 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
Yes - when we discover what makes things work the way they do without finding any supernatural aspect to it.

We didn't have to discover gravity - we could have discovered tiny angels pushing everything down. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover weather patterns - we could have discovered saints that controlled the weather. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover plate tectonics - we could have discovered demons responsible for earthquakes. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover evolution - we could have discovered God creating animals/humans/everything from scratch. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover the evolution of society - we could have discovered that societies came from the Tower of Babel, assigned by God. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.
We didn't have to discover the evolution of morality - we could have discovered that empathy only existed in humans, placed there by God. Turns out it's not supernatural - it's natural.

When we discover what makes things work the way they do without finding any supernatural aspect to it - it shows that it's from being natural and normal people.
You just keep repeating the same old argument by showing how they exist without explaining why the exist in the first place. It's, once again, like saying that there is no intelligent origin to a robotic assembly line.
Stile writes:
Yes - and evolution did that too. But they died out. Turns out if you look out for others, your society is better able to adapt to your environment than the ones that only look out for number one. So, the "only number one's" died out. Our ancestors killed them. And the more social species continued. Evolution!
And again, that is confusing the benefits of co-operation with empathy and altruism. Evolution on it's own leads to wolves enjoying the benefits of hunting in a pack to take down a prey, and then fighting over the spoils.
Stile writes:
You're the one who uses your "common sense" to try and define reality, even when reality says you're wrong - remember the millions of papers of evidence showing that you're wrong?
What paper. You can show me a paper like tangle does that shows how empathy and altruism evolved in humans, (and other animals too), but that does not answer the question of whether or not those characteristics were externally influenced or not.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2228 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 2:29 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2237 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2023 3:17 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2240 by Stile, posted 03-10-2023 2:29 PM GDR has replied

  
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