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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2206 of 3694 (908043)
03-05-2023 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2191 by nwr
03-04-2023 6:58 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
nwr writes:
Resisting peer pressure does not seem like an "easy way out."
I live in a secular world. I would bet that it isn't much different in Illinois that there is far more pressure to be Secular than there is to be a Christian.
You might want to simply consider this forum.
nwr writes:
I don't see a world view (if there is such a thing) as either true or false. There is no standard by which its truth or falsity can be judged.
Fair enough but I am sure that you believe that some things are absolutely wrong and somethings are absolutely right and that is your standard, regardless of whether or not there is a universal standard.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2191 by nwr, posted 03-04-2023 6:58 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2209 by nwr, posted 03-05-2023 9:38 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2207 of 3694 (908044)
03-05-2023 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2192 by Tangle
03-05-2023 4:22 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Of course we have beliefs! We're not bloody androids; atheists are fully featured humans with the same set of emotions and feelings that you have. WE JUST DON'T BELIEVE IN GODS. You know, exactly like we don't believe if fairies. It has exactly the same effect and meaning in our lives as not believing in elves - ie none whatsoever. I wish you guys could absorb that fact.
Frankly I don't understand for the world why this matters to you. I would add that I don't believe in the tooth fairy, but put another way I do believe that the tooth fairy doesn't exist.
Tangle writes:
But generally, I think you'll find that going along with the flow is a helluva lot easier than fighting against it.
Both of our cultures are secular. Being Christain requires you to go against the flow.
Percy writes:
Look, people are complicated things, they have complex and contradictory ideas about life that religions try to organise for them. It's simple to have a 'world view' when your life is governed by an all seeing, retribution driven, dictator that 'loves' you and a human theistic belief structure to handle the human side of things.
I don't see religions, (at least mine at any rate) as trying to organize my ideas. You have already pointed out, that there are multiple contradictory views amongst Christians.
Tangle writes:
I could go on, but you could sum it up with "I believe in 'do as you would be done by' but do it by building strong, independent, secular institutions to make it happen".
No problem with that except I don't much care whether the institution is secular or Christian. I am simply interested who will do it best, or for that matter who will do it at all.
Tangle writes:
No god is going to step in and actually do something to help, ie fix everything he broke 'in the beginning'.
No, but hopefully He will inspire people to step in and help.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2192 by Tangle, posted 03-05-2023 4:22 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2210 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2023 3:15 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2208 of 3694 (908045)
03-05-2023 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2205 by AZPaul3
03-05-2023 8:01 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Very good. Yes that is right. No god necessary for a good soul to do good.
Good gotcha! Edited post

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2205 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2023 8:01 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 2209 of 3694 (908046)
03-05-2023 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2206 by GDR
03-05-2023 8:06 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I live in a secular world. I would bet that it isn't much different in Illinois that there is far more pressure to be Secular than there is to be a Christian.
I can't recall any pressure to be secular. There's occasionally pressure toward being Christian, but fortunately that is infrequent. Most people, both at home and at work, have respected personal privacy and avoided saying much at all about religion. And this was true when I lived in a small townhouse complex and two of my neighbors were pastors/ministers.
You might want to simply consider this forum.
I assume that Phat experiences some anti-religious pressure. I try to avoid doing that, though I do press him on his social conservatism.
Fair enough but I am sure that you believe that some things are absolutely wrong and somethings are absolutely right and that is your standard, regardless of whether or not there is a universal standard.
I do have strong opinions about some things. But I try to avoid any appeal to absolutes.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity --> -->

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2206 by GDR, posted 03-05-2023 8:06 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 2210 of 3694 (908050)
03-06-2023 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2207 by GDR
03-05-2023 8:19 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Frankly I don't understand for the world why this matters to you.
It matters to me because you said that atheists have no beliefs, implying that we are amoral. You say it again more directly here.
GDR writes:
I believe that without it I would be completely self centred and care only about my own survival and well-being.
It's a common idea amongst fundamentalist believers, they used to say that without their belief they'd be rapists. Many of them probably still do.
It's incredibly insulting, a deeply ingrained prejudice and total misunderstanding of atheism. Yet here you are, still doing it despite it being explained to you over and over. I find it amazing how Christians routinely behalf un-Christianly.
Without your belief you would behave as you do now, just without all the bowing and gibbering. If you believe otherwise, you're admitting that you have no personal sense of morality at all, just something imposed on you from above and a code of behaviour you've adopted from fear of your afterlife.
I don't see religions, (at least mine at any rate) as trying to organize my ideas. You have already pointed out, that there are multiple contradictory views amongst Christians.
You don't think Christianity tries to organise your ideas? You're kidding - that's all it does! ‘ Give me a child till he is seven years old,’ said St Ignatius Loyola, ‘ and I will show you the man.’ It's indoctrination from birth and reinforcement until death.
No problem with that except I don't much care whether the institution is secular or Christian. I am simply interested who will do it best, or for that matter who will do it at all.
You don't care whether we have a theocracy or not? Are you mad? Look around the world and look how well theocracies are doing right now. Look back at how they worked in the past. There's a reason for the separation of church and state and you should know it.
No, but hopefully He will inspire people to step in and help.
Yeh, that's worked really well so far hasn't it?
Look, we need secular institutions because man was NOT made by a god that loves us. We need independent institutions to protect us from our worst instincts of individual hate and greed and lever our better collective instincts for the greater good of all. Something that would not be necessary at all if the god you believe in actually existed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2207 by GDR, posted 03-05-2023 8:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2212 by GDR, posted 03-06-2023 2:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2211 of 3694 (908051)
03-06-2023 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 2195 by AZPaul3
03-05-2023 9:31 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
I must say I love Tangle too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2195 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2023 9:31 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 2212 of 3694 (908071)
03-06-2023 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2210 by Tangle
03-06-2023 3:15 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
It matters to me because you said that atheists have no beliefs, implying that we are amoral. You say it again more directly here.
I have stated in other posts many times that I don't hold that view at all.
Tangle writes:
You say it again more directly here.
GDR writes:
I believe that without it I would be completely self centred and care only about my own survival and well-being.
That is not what I was saying. That has nothing to do with my Christian beliefs. I believe that the "still small voice of God" is universal and it impacts both Tangle and GDR. It is my unevidenced belief that without that God meme we would be left without those qualities. That statement had nothing to do with any particular religious belief or lack of any religious belief.
Tangle writes:
You don't think Christianity tries to organise your ideas? You're kidding - that's all it does! ‘ Give me a child till he is seven years old,’ said St Ignatius Loyola, ‘ and I will show you the man.’ It's indoctrination from birth and reinforcement until death.
My point was simply that I don't believe in the tooth fairy so by extension I do believe that the tooth fairy doesn't exist. Why do you have a problem when you say that as you don't believe that there is a god that you believe that a God doesn't exist It baffles me.
Apparently you were taken to church as a child and here you are an atheist. Yes, youi can certainly experience reinforcement within the church but not outside it. As a matter of fact in our secular societies we are more subject to an indoctrination that side lines churches.
Tangle writes:
You don't care whether we have a theocracy or not? Are you mad? Look around the world and look how well theocracies are doing right now. Look back at how they worked in the past. There's a reason for the separation of church and state and you should know it.
Yes, the separation of church and state is important, for both church and state. However that shouldn't mean that people of any faith should be excluded from government office. A theocracy is a disaster for both church and state.
Tangle writes:
Yeh, that's worked really well so far hasn't it?
Look, we need secular institutions because man was NOT made by a god that loves us. We need independent institutions to protect us from our worst instincts of individual hate and greed and lever our better collective instincts for the greater good of all. Something that would not be necessary at all if the god you believe in actually existed.
I agree with all of that except the last sentence, and that we have gone over several times. Some times though private or church based institutions can do a better job of social issues than can government. I mentioned this earlier but our Anglican diocese worked very hard with volunteer work to bring and support Syrian refugees to our area. My own little church was heavily involved in bringing over 3 families. The government bureaucracy seeing work being done by unpaid volunteers decided to make it much more difficult and as a result our diocese had to drop the program and now it has dried up with no one doing it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2210 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2023 3:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2213 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 3:09 AM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 2213 of 3694 (908076)
03-07-2023 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 2212 by GDR
03-06-2023 2:55 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
It is my unevidenced belief that without that God meme we would be left without those qualities.
But why do you need an unevidenced belief for that? Without biological functions such as empathy we KNOW that you would be self-centred and manipulative. We call the people with that medical condition psychopaths and we know the brain functions that are missing. Why call a biological mechanism that we can actually see working or not working the voice of god? Don't you think that's just plain primitive?
If it is the voice of god, why is it missing in some people?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2212 by GDR, posted 03-06-2023 2:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2217 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 11:47 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 2226 by GDR, posted 03-07-2023 1:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 2214 of 3694 (908078)
03-07-2023 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 2183 by Phat
03-03-2023 3:41 PM


Re: SOURCE Writ Large
Phat writes:
Linking God to reality encapsulates the essence of "Being Saved".
How so?
I've never noticed a marked difference in those who claim to "Be Saved" vs. those who do not claim such a thing.
What part of reality links God into it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2183 by Phat, posted 03-03-2023 3:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2231 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 10:55 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 2215 of 3694 (908079)
03-07-2023 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2185 by GDR
03-04-2023 1:58 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
How do you know that God doesn't influence your thoughts?
Because we've looked for any changes on people that would indicate that God is influencing their thoughts.
And we've never found anything that links such a claim to reality. Just normal natural people doing normal natural things.
How do you know that the still small but intangible voice of God isn't influencing you?
Because I've looked, and found nothing to suggest such a thing.
I'm willing to be shown to be wrong - feel free to suggest how God is influencing me or my thoughts.
All I ask is that you link it to reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2185 by GDR, posted 03-04-2023 1:58 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2227 by GDR, posted 03-07-2023 1:53 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 2216 of 3694 (908080)
03-07-2023 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 2192 by Tangle
03-05-2023 4:22 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Of course we have beliefs! We're not bloody androids; atheists are fully featured humans with the same set of emotions and feelings that you have. WE JUST DON'T BELIEVE IN GODS.
Not only that - I personally revel in my beliefs; when I know they're warranted. Being irrational is incredibly fun.
And we try to suppress our beliefs as much as possible when we know they're counter-productive (like when we have a priority of finding the truth - under serious investigation.)
Example:
When I play video games, I play them for fun and entertainment not for identifying truth.
I fully believe that I'm the best COD player ever to pick up a controller. And everyone else who kills me happens to get lucky or is hacking.
I don't care about the truth - because I understand that it's not my priority here - I'm HAVING FUN.
Of course, switch over to seriously attempting to identify the truth - and I can show how I'm middle-aged and my reflexes are slowing. I can show how I only play for fun... a few hours a week and many others play for fun for hours a day, every day. Others still play as their freaking job while streaming and are professionals. We all face the same amount of "luck" and actual, real hackers - yet my K/D is lower... simply because I'm not as good as they are.
But, of course - they're hacking and I'm amazing. And we can switch back to believing in having fun while I scream at the TV that "I'm better!!" while watching myself die in my own kill-cam because of course I'm the best.
It's all fine - as long as we identify our priorities and align ourselves with reality accordingly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2192 by Tangle, posted 03-05-2023 4:22 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2217 of 3694 (908090)
03-07-2023 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2213 by Tangle
03-07-2023 3:09 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
If it is the voice of god, why is it missing in some people?
Because God is with everyone yet only "in" whosoever believes(chooses to trust) Him.
You never graduated beyond the bells and the smells. Science and rational thought captivated you at a young age and shuffled you off before you could trust Him. Perhaps the Catholicism and the symbols confused you. Jesus is not a statue of a white (Italian/French man. Jesus was likely Dark skinned and very Middle Eastern, rather than the white skinned British English speaking Jesus that many films have portrayed him as.
There are three levels (at least) to get to the stage of "hearing Gods voice".
I may have said this before on our forum, but will address your specific point in Message 2213
Level One is "Knowing About God". God the myth. God the Christian God. God the Father.
The God of the Bible. One could say that everyone on the planet is at this level. Even atheists and people of other beliefs qualify to be included in this group.
----------------------------------
Level Two is "Meeting God". Critics will immediately challenge such a statement. They will label is an assumption and ask the same question that you asked in Message 2213. In fact, though many of them casually say that they would be open to meeting God were He(She It) to ever exist...but that their evidence (within their own mind) precludes such a possibility. Thus meeting God is an impossibility to them.
For believers, it is another story. Meeting God is that exact moment in time when they first believed that God (Jesus specifically) was more than simply a character in a book. He became real to them at that point. Many believers stop at this point. They are the ones that walk down to the stage/altar at a Billy Graham Crusade. They are the ones who, having said the sinners prayer in a corporate setting actually begin crying and report (later) that they felt a definite change at that moment in time. But then they simply attend church (which does not automatically or usually lead to personal growth) or they simply go back to school and allow the discipline of critical thinking erode their trust and/or faith in their emotional experience.
---------------------------------
You can surmise what Level three is. I will explain it if necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2213 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 3:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2218 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 12:15 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 2219 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 12:24 PM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 2218 of 3694 (908093)
03-07-2023 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2217 by Phat
03-07-2023 11:47 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
There are three levels (at least) to get to the stage of "hearing Gods voice."
There are similar stages to increasing your thetan levels and becoming a good Scientologist.
Yet - Scientologists and those that "hear God's voice" are no different from anyone else, are they?
They get in the same number of vehicle accidents.
They are just as likely to be a victim of natural disasters.
Human made vaccines work equally well on them to protect them from harm.
They aren't happier than anyone else.
They aren't safer than anyone else.
They aren't more prosperous than anyone else.
We do see some differences though:
-although they don't seem to be as generous when giving "to anyone or everyone in need;" they do tend to be more generous if someone within their own religious group is in need.
-the higher the level of fundamentalism/dogmatism - the more likely such people are unable to identify fake news
Which seems like exactly the results we would expect of any and every group that thinks they "have the answers" within their fold when, really, they do not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2217 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 11:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2219 of 3694 (908096)
03-07-2023 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2217 by Phat
03-07-2023 11:47 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
Because God is with everyone yet only "in" whosoever believes(chooses to trust) Him.
So god is in the psychopath but he just can't hear him eh? That's pretty much as dumb as a religious argument can get.
You never graduated beyond the bells and the smells. Science and rational thought captivated you at a young age and shuffled you off before you could trust Him. Perhaps the Catholicism and the symbols confused you. Jesus is not a statue of a white (Italian/French man. Jesus was likely Dark skinned and very Middle Eastern, rather than the white skinned British English speaking Jesus that many films have portrayed him as.
You're such a dickhead Phat. Really. It's been explained to you many times that many of us here believed the entire story, the whole bloody caboodle, the whole god whispering nonsense. Then we didn't. Get that into your bloody head will you - we believed.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2217 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 11:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2220 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:28 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 2222 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2220 of 3694 (908098)
03-07-2023 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2219 by Tangle
03-07-2023 12:24 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Get that into your bloody head will you - we believed.
Bullshit. If you ever believed as I believe, you would have questioned. Perhaps more than I do, even. But you would have never thrown God away. And yet you did. Get that through you're bloody head!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2219 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 12:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2221 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 12:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2224 by nwr, posted 03-07-2023 1:19 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2225 by Stile, posted 03-07-2023 1:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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