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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2211 of 3694 (908051)
03-06-2023 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 2195 by AZPaul3
03-05-2023 9:31 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
I must say I love Tangle too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2195 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2023 9:31 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2217 of 3694 (908090)
03-07-2023 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2213 by Tangle
03-07-2023 3:09 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
If it is the voice of god, why is it missing in some people?
Because God is with everyone yet only "in" whosoever believes(chooses to trust) Him.
You never graduated beyond the bells and the smells. Science and rational thought captivated you at a young age and shuffled you off before you could trust Him. Perhaps the Catholicism and the symbols confused you. Jesus is not a statue of a white (Italian/French man. Jesus was likely Dark skinned and very Middle Eastern, rather than the white skinned British English speaking Jesus that many films have portrayed him as.
There are three levels (at least) to get to the stage of "hearing Gods voice".
I may have said this before on our forum, but will address your specific point in Message 2213
Level One is "Knowing About God". God the myth. God the Christian God. God the Father.
The God of the Bible. One could say that everyone on the planet is at this level. Even atheists and people of other beliefs qualify to be included in this group.
----------------------------------
Level Two is "Meeting God". Critics will immediately challenge such a statement. They will label is an assumption and ask the same question that you asked in Message 2213. In fact, though many of them casually say that they would be open to meeting God were He(She It) to ever exist...but that their evidence (within their own mind) precludes such a possibility. Thus meeting God is an impossibility to them.
For believers, it is another story. Meeting God is that exact moment in time when they first believed that God (Jesus specifically) was more than simply a character in a book. He became real to them at that point. Many believers stop at this point. They are the ones that walk down to the stage/altar at a Billy Graham Crusade. They are the ones who, having said the sinners prayer in a corporate setting actually begin crying and report (later) that they felt a definite change at that moment in time. But then they simply attend church (which does not automatically or usually lead to personal growth) or they simply go back to school and allow the discipline of critical thinking erode their trust and/or faith in their emotional experience.
---------------------------------
You can surmise what Level three is. I will explain it if necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2213 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 3:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2220 of 3694 (908098)
03-07-2023 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2219 by Tangle
03-07-2023 12:24 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Get that into your bloody head will you - we believed.
Bullshit. If you ever believed as I believe, you would have questioned. Perhaps more than I do, even. But you would have never thrown God away. And yet you did. Get that through you're bloody head!

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2222 of 3694 (908100)
03-07-2023 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2219 by Tangle
03-07-2023 12:24 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
t's been explained to you many times that many of us here believed the entire story, the whole bloody caboodle, the whole god whispering nonsense. Then we didn't.
Silly rabbit. Nobody believes the whole story. The question is which parts one chooses to keep.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2231 of 3694 (908125)
03-07-2023 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2214 by Stile
03-07-2023 8:31 AM


Re: SOURCE Writ Large
Good question. *sips coffee*

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2233 of 3694 (908154)
03-09-2023 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2224 by nwr
03-07-2023 1:19 PM


Whats The Difference?
nwr writes:
It turns out that "Because God is with everyone" is indistinguishable from "there is no God." And if I cannot tell the difference, why bother with a useless belief.
The belief is/was useless because God was only with you(or not) There is no difference between being with everyone on the planet and not existing. That much you understand.
What I'm talking about is the belief that God is actually in us. That God is with everyone yet is only "in" those who chose back. It never made sense to any of you because perhaps He was never invited into you. You did not see and you did not believe...beyond a certain point. I did. And when I did, the change was felt. I knew.
My numerous critics will challenge my claim. They always do. jar will ask me how would I know it was God and not a bad burrito. I knew. Ringo will accuse me of not doing what the message said to do. And I am guilty. None of you can climb inside my head(just as Tangle said about me judging him) but you likely will collectively say that without evidence I have no argument. And that is where the stalemate will remain for the likely life of EvC Forum, its members, and in regards to evidence.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2242 of 3694 (908361)
03-13-2023 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2241 by Taq
03-10-2023 3:39 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Taq writes:
Religious belief is part of the human condition, and far be it from me to tell others what religious beliefs they should hold. Where I draw the line is when religious beliefs try to masquerade as reason and logic. This is what appears to be happening here. Is there any situation where we can rule out supernatural influence? Isn't the supernatural unfalsifiable, by its very nature?
Good question. Be back later to finish this topic.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2254 of 3694 (908396)
03-14-2023 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2250 by AZPaul3
03-13-2023 9:19 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZSolutions writes:
but we have done a good job of disproving evil spirits and demonic possession so we got that going for us.
How can you "disprove" something with no objective evidence to work with? At best you have debunked them. By definition, you have established by consensus that:
quote:
debunk: to expose or excoriate (a claim, assertion, sentiment, etc.) as being pretentious, false, or exaggerated
You cant establish falsity. At best you can claim pretentiousness, largely because you are an antitheist and have spirits running you also. The best word...instead of disproving is to suggest blatant exaggeration. (Which is in line with human nature.) Just sayin. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you think for a moment that Satan would want to advertise?
He wants people to dismiss his existence if anything.
AZDoesIt writes:
Non-detectable means not detected yet. Will find 'em.
*slaps antitheist in the head*... If you are looking, you would do better to try and find the Creator that gave you your mind rather than some spook from a vortex in Arizona that gives you shamanistic illusions of grandeur.
All such influences we can identify are physical. We have no reason to suppose anything other. Religiously motivated what-ifs and maybe’s don’t count … anymore. There are no justifiable reasons to entertain such notions.
The quest is justifiable if and only if Justice is needed. Humans are slacking on the job. Just look at how we have botched climate change so far. All of you naughty shamans need to meet your maker and get straight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2250 by AZPaul3, posted 03-13-2023 9:19 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2255 of 3694 (908397)
03-14-2023 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2253 by Tangle
03-14-2023 4:51 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Science explains what can be observed. If something can't be observed directly or indirectly, we know and can know nothing about it. We are able to observe areas of the brain being activated by different stimuli - empathetic reactions are observed. 'Mirroring' is a reaction we feel when observing someone else suffer. It's a physical reaction to other's suffering, we almost literally feel their pain, we can see the same areas of our brain light up in ours as in theirs - though the actual pain is obviously missing. This is why people cry when they see others suffer.
In other words, mirroring is equivalent to empathy...which is a uniquely human trait.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2258 of 3694 (908416)
03-14-2023 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2256 by Stile
03-14-2023 9:04 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
The thing is - reality doesn't care...
Reality cannot care. Reality has no more of a capability of "caring" any more than chance could "create" or explain the origin of the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2256 by Stile, posted 03-14-2023 9:04 AM Stile has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2262 of 3694 (908425)
03-15-2023 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2261 by AZPaul3
03-14-2023 8:28 PM


AI AI OH!
AZImagination writes:
We are ignorant of such things only because our technology is not to the point it can discern this requirement of yours
Technology can discern nothing. It can provide humans with data in order for humans to discern. AI has no soul.
We will stay ahead of AI not with our minds but with our hearts and souls. AI will never best our heart.(Spirit)
AZAnswers writes:
science says your gods do not exist simply because there is nothing to evidence or require such a thing in this universe.
Science will never have the computing power to even define the parameters of such a "thing". Science will never have the capability to gather the evidence required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2261 by AZPaul3, posted 03-14-2023 8:28 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2272 of 3694 (908502)
03-16-2023 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 2264 by AZPaul3
03-15-2023 7:33 PM


Respond As The Spirit Moves You (or not)
AZspirits-r-us writes:
Respond as the spirit moves you or not.
Give GDR a break. He is in essence working out his beliefs and testing them against the unemotional impassive intelligence of the peanut gallery. You are right in that we *should* be having fun here. Already I miss ringo. He showed up every day to answer every post that was directed at him. He and I never agreed, but it was fun to attempt to frame and re-frame my (hopefully lighthearted) arguments which he would promptly demolish again and again. I sincerely hope that he is ok and is just taking a break from the crazy that can be this place! If any of you know how to get in touch with him, let us know if he is ok or not. Canada has a reasonably priced health care system, but he may need help. Now...about the ether. (Either Orrrr) What were you saying, EZPaul3?
AZ writes:
There are no requirements to respond here.
True, but if one simply trolls and then crawls back under their rock, they are employing hit and run tactics to our scintillating discussion!
AZSoulTrain writes:
This is supposed to be fun. (but?) I will not be offended if you ignore my ravings to follow your (religiously injured) heart.
The national peanut gallery used to call liberals "bleeding Hearts". Does anyone know where the term originated? Lets throw that one on the pile along with "woke". We can define them later if we have any time!

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2273 of 3694 (908511)
03-16-2023 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 2268 by Theodoric
03-15-2023 10:16 PM


Introducing The Cosmic Skeptic
Theo writes:
All of the arguments of CS Lewis are bad. I am amazed that anyone would think he was some sort if brilliant philosopher. His arguments are no better than those of a freshman philosophy student.
Speaking of student philosophers, allow me to introduce
Alex O'Connor, the one and only Cosmic Skeptic!
https://youtu.be/QqasvA9gba8
Alex has some compelling arguments.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2409 of 3694 (910822)
05-17-2023 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2408 by AZPaul3
05-15-2023 11:05 PM


AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
AZ Conclusions writes:
What obligation did I miss? What evasion have I committed? And I was right. You did recommend something. You recommended a universal intelligence. So my cop-out was in not believing your crap? That’s not cop-out, that is sanity.
Your cop out was in refusing to falsify the premise. You assume that no universal intelligence is the default position.
Essentially you deify science. Tell me. Did science exist before humans described it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2408 by AZPaul3, posted 05-15-2023 11:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2410 by AZPaul3, posted 05-17-2023 3:33 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2411 of 3694 (910825)
05-18-2023 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2410 by AZPaul3
05-17-2023 3:33 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
Phat writes:
Did science exist before humans described it?
Do you think some school of T-rex's came up with it first?
Highly doubtful. My point is that the math and physics laws that govern science did in fact exist before humans discovered the formula for such laws. If science could exist without humans, why couldn't God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2410 by AZPaul3, posted 05-17-2023 3:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2412 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2023 8:55 AM Phat has replied

  
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