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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 2194 of 3694 (908008)
03-05-2023 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2193 by Phat
03-05-2023 6:41 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
I think I mentioned that I don't believe in fairies and elves. That goes for all the other childish fantasies that you still hold too.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2193 by Phat, posted 03-05-2023 6:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2197 by Phat, posted 03-05-2023 2:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2201 of 3694 (908037)
03-05-2023 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2197 by Phat
03-05-2023 2:41 PM


Re: Illusions and Delusions. What is Real
You've stopped the critical thinking course haven't you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2197 by Phat, posted 03-05-2023 2:41 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 2210 of 3694 (908050)
03-06-2023 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2207 by GDR
03-05-2023 8:19 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Frankly I don't understand for the world why this matters to you.
It matters to me because you said that atheists have no beliefs, implying that we are amoral. You say it again more directly here.
GDR writes:
I believe that without it I would be completely self centred and care only about my own survival and well-being.
It's a common idea amongst fundamentalist believers, they used to say that without their belief they'd be rapists. Many of them probably still do.
It's incredibly insulting, a deeply ingrained prejudice and total misunderstanding of atheism. Yet here you are, still doing it despite it being explained to you over and over. I find it amazing how Christians routinely behalf un-Christianly.
Without your belief you would behave as you do now, just without all the bowing and gibbering. If you believe otherwise, you're admitting that you have no personal sense of morality at all, just something imposed on you from above and a code of behaviour you've adopted from fear of your afterlife.
I don't see religions, (at least mine at any rate) as trying to organize my ideas. You have already pointed out, that there are multiple contradictory views amongst Christians.
You don't think Christianity tries to organise your ideas? You're kidding - that's all it does! ‘ Give me a child till he is seven years old,’ said St Ignatius Loyola, ‘ and I will show you the man.’ It's indoctrination from birth and reinforcement until death.
No problem with that except I don't much care whether the institution is secular or Christian. I am simply interested who will do it best, or for that matter who will do it at all.
You don't care whether we have a theocracy or not? Are you mad? Look around the world and look how well theocracies are doing right now. Look back at how they worked in the past. There's a reason for the separation of church and state and you should know it.
No, but hopefully He will inspire people to step in and help.
Yeh, that's worked really well so far hasn't it?
Look, we need secular institutions because man was NOT made by a god that loves us. We need independent institutions to protect us from our worst instincts of individual hate and greed and lever our better collective instincts for the greater good of all. Something that would not be necessary at all if the god you believe in actually existed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2207 by GDR, posted 03-05-2023 8:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2212 by GDR, posted 03-06-2023 2:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 2213 of 3694 (908076)
03-07-2023 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 2212 by GDR
03-06-2023 2:55 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
It is my unevidenced belief that without that God meme we would be left without those qualities.
But why do you need an unevidenced belief for that? Without biological functions such as empathy we KNOW that you would be self-centred and manipulative. We call the people with that medical condition psychopaths and we know the brain functions that are missing. Why call a biological mechanism that we can actually see working or not working the voice of god? Don't you think that's just plain primitive?
If it is the voice of god, why is it missing in some people?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2212 by GDR, posted 03-06-2023 2:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2217 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 11:47 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 2226 by GDR, posted 03-07-2023 1:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2219 of 3694 (908096)
03-07-2023 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2217 by Phat
03-07-2023 11:47 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
Because God is with everyone yet only "in" whosoever believes(chooses to trust) Him.
So god is in the psychopath but he just can't hear him eh? That's pretty much as dumb as a religious argument can get.
You never graduated beyond the bells and the smells. Science and rational thought captivated you at a young age and shuffled you off before you could trust Him. Perhaps the Catholicism and the symbols confused you. Jesus is not a statue of a white (Italian/French man. Jesus was likely Dark skinned and very Middle Eastern, rather than the white skinned British English speaking Jesus that many films have portrayed him as.
You're such a dickhead Phat. Really. It's been explained to you many times that many of us here believed the entire story, the whole bloody caboodle, the whole god whispering nonsense. Then we didn't. Get that into your bloody head will you - we believed.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2217 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 11:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2220 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:28 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 2222 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2221 of 3694 (908099)
03-07-2023 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2220 by Phat
03-07-2023 12:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes:
Bullshit. If you ever believed as I believe, you would have questioned. Perhaps more than I do, even. But you would have never thrown God away. And yet you did. Get that through your bloody head!
Phat, you're a moron. I thought I had more to say, but that covers it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2220 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2223 of 3694 (908105)
03-07-2023 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2222 by Phat
03-07-2023 12:53 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Moron writes:
Silly rabbit. Nobody believes the whole story. The question is which parts one chooses to keep.
I believed the entirety of it. All of it. Get over yourself, you can not know what I felt and believed. I'm telling you I believed it as much as anyone could - no exceptions. From what you say, you have less of a believe than I did. Now ain't that a howler...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2222 by Phat, posted 03-07-2023 12:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2229 of 3694 (908116)
03-07-2023 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2226 by GDR
03-07-2023 1:44 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I disagree that empathy is a biological function. You can describe a history of the rise, and decline for that matter, of empathy within cultures. That however is not evidence that empathy is a biological function.
If empathy is not a biological function how exactly does it work? We know of NO human or animal reaction that is not biology. 10 minutes googling the neuroscience of empathy get's you a lifetimes worth of reading. But you just 'disagree' - no explanation necessary
How we empathize with others: A neurobiological perspective - PMC
I also don't agree that the still small voice of god is missing in some. It can absolutely be drowned out by all of the other influences that we are subject to, or by mental illness for that matter
Simple denial is not good enough
"Neuroscience has identified brain structures and functions that correlate with psychopathic tendencies."
https://www.frontiersin.org/...10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00294/full

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2226 by GDR, posted 03-07-2023 1:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2236 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 2238 of 3694 (908252)
03-09-2023 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2236 by GDR
03-09-2023 2:50 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
My understanding of biology borders on nil
So please, please don't deny what is accepted science before you check whether it is.
GDR writes:
However, what the paper doesn't and can't answer, is why those processes exist in the first place, nor can it tell whether or not there is an external non-material influence, (amongst many others), on the thoughts that are formed.
The why? is chemistry. Hydrogen bonds with oxygen to form water because it has to. We are chemistry. Two cells from different people fuse and develop into an adult human because of chemistry - which is actually physics. If you want to discuss how the laws of physics came into being, I wish you luck.
You can if you like say at this point that some unspecified something that doesn't itself need a why (because you don't like to think of that question from your side of the discussion) did it. But that would be disingenuous and a logical fallacy. But hey ho, you will.
I don't disagree. Brain damage or abnormalities can cause abnormal behaviour. We're designed with two functioning legs. If we break both of them we can't walk properly.
But we're not talking of the purely mechanical are we? We're talking about being able to hear the small voice of god. (You're really resisting this aren't you?)
I think you have a problem. If you accept that some people can't hear this still, small voice because of an abnormality, injury (or drug) you are accepting that it is actually a physical thing, not a supernatural thing.
You also accept that some people can't hear it for no fault of their own - which to my mind doesn't seem terribly god-like or fair.
Isn't it more likely to be what we say it is and have stacks of evidence for - another evolved trait rather than something that, to be frank is just bonkers, unevidenced and unprovable?
Why do you have to resist actual knowledge? You can still believe in your god, why do this, you can only lose as we get more and more facts?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2236 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2245 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2253 of 3694 (908395)
03-14-2023 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2245 by GDR
03-13-2023 8:00 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
But it isn't about the science. It is about what there is in addition to the science.
Science explains what can be observed. If something can't be observed directly or indirectly, we know and can know nothing about it. We are able to observe areas of the brain being activated by different stimuli - empathetic reactions are observed. 'Mirroring' is a reaction we feel when observing someone else suffer. It's a physical reaction to other's suffering, we almost literally feel their pain, we can see the same areas of our brain light up in ours as in theirs - though the actual pain is obviously missing. This is why people cry when they see others suffer.
They show thoughts forming and where brain damage can alter behaviour. (I'm assuming that to be correct.) However it doesn't show what life experience, or other inputs there were that caused the thoughts in the first place.
This doesn't make much sense to me. Our brains store life experiences and are conditioned by them.
Are you trying to tell us that this god of yours is directly causing our thoughts and motivations minute by minute?
I'll try another way. Your mother tells you not to do drugs. You have the choice to heed the advice or ignore it. Will a brain scan pick up the fact that your mom gave you that advice? In the same way that you can ignore your Mom's influence you can choose to ignore God's influence, neither voice can be identified as such on a brain scan. Also of course, brain damage can impact your ability to be positively affected by the advice of God or Mother.
Your mum's voice can very easily be shown to be detectable on a brain scan. It shows up in the auditory cortex of the temporal lobe, where it's also processed and stored.
We also have executive functions of the brain where we make decisions about what to do with the information we've learned from our mum's words. We can watch that decision making process at work in the prefrontal cortex with a brain scan.
People make moral decisions based on these (and other) functions. Morality is developmental and physical. It's both conditioned (by culture and upbringing) and biology. All humans and many other animals have instinctive empathetic behaviours. There is no evidence for, or need of, some weird, direct supernatural interventions to explain this.
Not only that, the clear fact that our ability to empathise can be destroyed by drugs, illness and birth defects means that it's a physical not a supernatural effect. Just like every other emotion and human behaviour type ever seen.
Why would a supernatural god need to use a natural and flawed method to influence a human? It's beyond daft.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2245 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:00 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2255 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 8:23 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 2276 by GDR, posted 04-01-2023 7:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2270 of 3694 (908477)
03-16-2023 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2263 by GDR
03-15-2023 7:10 PM


GDR writes:
However, I stumbled on a CS Lewis quote, ….
Oh good, more evidence-free waffle and the fallacy of personal incredulity thrown in for free.
The fact that Lewis, you and me find our existence incredible does not mean goddidit.
Nor does it mean that a God came to earth as a Jewish man to redeem us of our sins, was killed and sprang back to life only to disappear into the clouds to be never seen or heard of again. Now THAT is unbelievable.
It's not even a logical thought process. Why isn't it more incredible that a god did it all? After all a god that could make 'life the universe and everything' that you simply can't believe could have come about naturally must be even more unbelievable.
You can't answer the problem of infinite regress by planting an artificial full stop in mid sentence. Lewis is utterly clueless, god knows why you're so impressed by him, I suppose it's because you think he says the things you believe in better. Well he might do, but what he says is still fallacy-ridden nonsense.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2263 by GDR, posted 03-15-2023 7:10 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2271 by PaulK, posted 03-16-2023 3:58 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2280 of 3694 (909385)
04-02-2023 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2276 by GDR
04-01-2023 7:31 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
No, I'm contending that this so called still small voice of God is there influencing us to do the right and loving thing just as there are other natural influences and desires influencing us to do the selfish thing.
I still don't understand. How is your god influencing us if he's not directly influencing us?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2276 by GDR, posted 04-01-2023 7:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2281 by Theodoric, posted 04-02-2023 9:19 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 2291 by GDR, posted 04-07-2023 7:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 2299 of 3694 (909663)
04-08-2023 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2291 by GDR
04-07-2023 7:53 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
We have numerous influences in our lives, some more subtle than others. Say that we observe someone dropping a wad money on the sidewalk. Do we run after him to return it or do we just happily jam it into our pocket.
There are no doubt numerous influences and experiences that pull is in one direction or the other. I am simply saying that the still small voice of God is one that would prompt us to run after they guy and return the money.
This seems to make some sort of sense to you but to me it makes none at all. Earlier you said this:
quote:
I'm contending that this so called still small voice of God is there influencing us to do the right and loving thing
But when I asked you this:
quote:
Are you trying to tell us that this god of yours is directly causing our thoughts and motivations minute by minute?
You said “No”.
He influences us directly, but he doesn't influence us directly. I don't know how you think this is an answer.
You have also left out the other half of the story told to children about godly whispering. The devil whispers in the other ear doesn't he? He tempts us with his 'rough, loud voice' to do the bad things. Do you believe in this too?
Surely you know this is all nonsense? We have a reasonable understanding of why people (and many animals) do both 'good' and 'bad' things. There is no mechanism for a 'still, small voice', it's simply a metaphor for an evolved trait that has helped us survive. The necessity for all life to kill and eat other life in order to survive is the source of our selfishness. The two are kept in balance by our institutions - that's why civilisation progresses as we improve our institutions and collapses when they fail.
Your 'still small voice' is born of ignorance and of primitive belief systems - it's an anachronism.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2291 by GDR, posted 04-07-2023 7:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2307 by GDR, posted 04-11-2023 8:47 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2309 of 3694 (909842)
04-12-2023 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2307 by GDR
04-11-2023 8:47 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I don't know how to answer this.
That's because it doesn't make any sense. It's like the suffering problem; can't be explained so ignored.
When you observe someone returning some money that was dropped and it influences you to do the same thing in a similar occurrence later then would you call that influence direct or not?
It's simple learned cultural behaviour. It's how civilisations - and children (and chimps) - develop.
Frankly I don't believe individual personality named satan that leads us to do evil. I agree with Pogo when he says, as best as I can remember it, "that we have seen the enemy and it is us".
Can't you see how one-sided this is? God is responsible for the good in us but we are responsible for the bad? This is just religious nonsense. Why can't you say “we have seen the friend and it is us?” At least we have evidence for that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2307 by GDR, posted 04-11-2023 8:47 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2314 by GDR, posted 04-14-2023 5:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2316 of 3694 (910025)
04-15-2023 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 2314 by GDR
04-14-2023 5:58 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Sure we have learned cultural behaviours but why do we instinctively know that there some learned behaviours that are good and some behaviours that are instinctively bad.
Because for hundreds of thousands of years we've learned that some behaviours are more beneficial than others. It's not a matter of good or bad, it's what works for us and what doesn't. Eventually those behaviours become hardwired.
Much later we developed consciousness and began to have some control over our primitive emotions; we can act against our hardwired instincts but 'normal' people can't avoid them. See someone harmed and we feel it ourselves. See someone laugh and we laugh, see someone cry for a lost child and we cry. It's inbuilt like a dog wagging it's tail and a pigeon homing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2314 by GDR, posted 04-14-2023 5:58 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2324 by GDR, posted 04-19-2023 6:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
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