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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2047 of 3694 (906081)
02-06-2023 5:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 2039 by GDR
02-06-2023 4:00 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR:
There is a common thread that appears in every form of religion that I know of and also is there in the non-theistic world. Golden rule in religion I would say that is an acceptable norm for most societies or cultures, even though it is as often or maybe even more often than not ignored. It is more important to focus on that rather than simply arguing about any specific understanding of the world we live in.
Given that that is true, why doesn't that suggest to you that people are confusing a biological function imbedded in people (who are evolved apes) with religions and gods? What is the most conservative assumption here?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2039 by GDR, posted 02-06-2023 4:00 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2078 of 3694 (906352)
02-10-2023 9:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 2070 by Phat
02-10-2023 3:12 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes: Reality says nothing of the sort.
If you are honest about your thinking skills course you'll take notice of what people say, not just automatically try to find a way of rebutting them, regardless of whether the rebuttal is relevant or not. In this case, reality (ie our observations of it) tell us that people do not recover from being properly dead, so yes reality says that people do not get resurrected. We call Christ's alleged resurrection a miracle because it is NOT part of our reality.
Absence of evidence does not define the conclusion, especially if the story traveled worldwide and has so many adherents today. Again, be honest. This is not a rational argument. Things can be true or false regardless of how many people believe or do not believe in them. I'll leave you to find your own examples. Are you prepared to think or not?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2070 by Phat, posted 02-10-2023 3:12 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2116 of 3694 (907135)
02-19-2023 9:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 2099 by GDR
02-15-2023 5:00 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: I suggest that common sense points to the conclusion that life exists because of a pre-existing intelligence.
You keep saying this but when we ask how your common sense deals with the problem of "who or what created the pre-existing intelligence" you never respond. Like the problem of suffering you have no answer so you behave as though these problems don't matter. If you're going to argue 'common sense', you can't stop when it suits you, you must follow the logic to its destination.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2099 by GDR, posted 02-15-2023 5:00 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2119 by GDR, posted 02-20-2023 1:26 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2121 of 3694 (907222)
02-20-2023 6:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 2119 by GDR
02-20-2023 1:26 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
Gdr writes: I have responded to that numerous times including in this thread. Ok, I missed it somehow, but I've seem Percy ask you at least half a dozen times - remind me
I have also responded to that numerous times. Yes, it is a problem for Christians. it's a problem for humanity - nothing special about Christians
Part of the answer is that there can't be an ability to choose good if you can't choose evil. yeh, but you know that's nonsense because you believe in heaven where suffering doesn't exist.
As far as natural suffering as in earthquakes and cancer, i simply conclude that they are a natural part of an entropic world with only one dimension of time, that will ultimately lead to a world that is not subject to entropy. The god that doesn't love you enough not to hurt and kill you could easily have created a world where suffering is not necessary - in fact he's done it at least twice according to your book.
I realize that is not a perfect answer but at this point it is about faith.
Even you know that this is not an answer at all. Your 'matter of faith' is obviously just a matter of hope. It has no grounding in either logic or the bible.
I do see God in people's empathy for, and the desire to help those that are suffering. So you say, but not so much in hate, greed, avarice, jealousy etc etc?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2119 by GDR, posted 02-20-2023 1:26 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2126 by GDR, posted 02-21-2023 4:08 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2127 of 3694 (907333)
02-21-2023 5:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 2126 by GDR
02-21-2023 4:08 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: I'm not going through over 500 posts to find the posts that were my response to this issue. I quoted Brian Greene where he tells that the mathematics of science tells us that time should be symmetrical and flowing backwards and forwards but that entropy limits us to only going in one direction. Some rather esoteric scientific theories such as string theory speculate on the existence of additional time dimensions. We can only comprehend our world with a single dimension of time. We can move around infinitely with our 3 spatial dimensions and I suggest that God could do the same with more than one dimension of time and so no creator of the creator is needed. Surely you know that this is just pseudo-scientific waffle? Of course you do, you're not stupid. But you're making excuses to hide a real problem. This is not a science issue, it's a logic/philosophical issue. If you invoke a creator being necessary to create us, you have to explain how to avoid the infinite regression of who or what created the creator. You have never answered this.
It is a question of how a Christian who believes in a God who created and loves us would allow for suffering. Exactly - and you have no answer to that either.
OK, this is pure speculation but it seems to me that to have the world without evil it requires beings that have freely chosen good in the first place. Again, you're making up excuses aren't you? Have you ever really researched the problem of suffering? You can fabricate reasons for choice but they don't stand up to any real analysis. But there's no choice with natural disasters. Bad things happen to good people. There is no answer to that - religion has been struggling with that for millennia.
Firstly I understand much of the Bible to be understood mythologically,
Sure, that's what it is.
but I don't know the mind of God other that\n what we can see in Jesus. What we all see in Jesus is 'do as you would be done by' - not original but at least a good message. Your religion though is based on the mythology.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2126 by GDR, posted 02-21-2023 4:08 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2129 by GDR, posted 02-22-2023 8:10 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2132 of 3694 (907390)
02-23-2023 3:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 2129 by GDR
02-22-2023 8:10 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: I believe God to be eternal
Your logic-based argument was that intelligence requires an intelligence to create it. Our response to that argument is that in that case the creator intelligence requires a greater intelligence to create IT. Your response then introduced an uncaused cause which breaks your initial premise. Intelligence therefore does not require a greater intelligence to create it. By invoking an uncaused cause, you simply said “I believe” again.
I simply gave one way that I see as a possible way of considering an eternal being. No you didn't, you came up with a pile of pseudo-science that you don't understand as an alibi for a pure belief. If you want the science-based answer to the origin of intelligence it's evolution. We have overwhelming evidence that people and their intelligence evolved naturally.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2129 by GDR, posted 02-22-2023 8:10 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2139 by GDR, posted 02-23-2023 5:23 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2133 of 3694 (907391)
02-23-2023 3:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 2130 by Phat
02-22-2023 10:40 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
Phat writes: Why would I have to avoid an infinite regress? Its a basic issue.
Because if the first premise of your argument is “intelligence requires a greater intelligence to create it “ you must follow the logic which leads to an infinite series of increasingly intelligent creators. If you say that your god is uncaused, you break your first premise and the argument collapses.
The book says "in the beginning God..." so logically …..
What 'the book says' is irrelevant. This is a simple logic argument. You can't invoke an uncaused cause and leave your first premise intact. It's a matter of belief that your particular god doesn't need a cause. If you guys could just leave it at that, we'd have nothing to say, but you have to use broken philosophy and bad science.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2130 by Phat, posted 02-22-2023 10:40 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2140 of 3694 (907434)
02-24-2023 3:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 2139 by GDR
02-23-2023 5:23 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: I can't remember where I read it but it was in a book on science that hoped to help the great unwashed like myself. The writer claimed that our universe is "an emergent property of a greater reality". We do not know how the universe came about. Speculating about “greater realities” is as pointless as making up gods to explain what we don't understand yet. If you want to hear real science about how a universe may come into existence from nothing, try listening to Lawrence Krauss. https://www.youtube.com/live/F87DyAsYQoI?feature=share
I see God as being in that greater reality, and I simply see within that in that greater reality is the possibility of there being multiple dimensions of time without entropy. Yeh, well that's just waffle. You have a belief in the Christian god of a 2,000 year old book, it's got nothing to do with entropy and multiple dimensions.
Sure it was spread as Dawkins might say by natural memes.
What was? Evolution? Evolution isn't a meme it's a scientific discovery. A fact.
However that doesn't tell us wheteher ro not there is a God meme involved as well.
It tells us that a god was simply not necessary to create the diversity of life we see on our planet - including intelligent life. We have zero evidence for an interventionist god and zero need for one to explain intelligent life. You have a belief you acquired from your culture, why are you trying to justify it with science that you don't understand and doesn't support what you actually believe? There is no science that supports a risen Christ and never will be. Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2139 by GDR, posted 02-23-2023 5:23 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2143 by GDR, posted 02-24-2023 5:59 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2145 of 3694 (907520)
02-25-2023 3:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 2143 by GDR
02-24-2023 5:59 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: Your video is an hour and a half. Maybe you could summarize it. Yes, actual science is hard, it requires a lot of work and a lot of understanding. The summary is the the universe was self-creating and inevitable.
From my Christian POV what interests me is the formation of life. Whether or not God created life in an pre-exiting world or not doesn't really impact my Christian beliefs. Nothing influences your Christian beliefs does it? You feel that you have a personal communion with Christ. How could any actual facts disturb that? You find excuses to wave away all evidence counting against that belief. I don't understand why you bother with these discussions, nothing we can say can penetrate your delusion. Your belief is now so watered down from the original story that there's nothing left but a belief in the resurrection of Christ. You deny pretty much all traditional Christian beliefs and now you tell us that you don't even require your god to have created the universe. It's your very own personal religion.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2143 by GDR, posted 02-24-2023 5:59 PM | | GDR has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2168 of 3694 (907762)
02-28-2023 10:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 2157 by GDR
02-27-2023 5:36 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: I don't that my relationship to Christ is uniquely personal. I believe that the "still small voice of God" is there for everyone including Tangle. I guess it's personal in that we all choose how to respond to it. "I believe". [sigh] Like I say, nothing we can say can penetrate the shield of personal belief. Why are you here?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2157 by GDR, posted 02-27-2023 5:36 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2171 by GDR, posted 03-01-2023 6:22 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2170 of 3694 (907827)
02-28-2023 6:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 2169 by GDR
02-28-2023 4:39 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
There's no such thing as an atheistic charity. Us atheists just give to charity.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2169 by GDR, posted 02-28-2023 4:39 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2172 of 3694 (907918)
03-02-2023 3:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 2171 by GDR
03-01-2023 6:22 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: Nothing I can say can penetrate the shield of personal belief. Why are you here? It cuts both ways. And you also never learn. How many times has it been explained to you that atheism ISN'T A BELIEF. I will change my mind instantly if you can provide me with evidence. There is no equivalence between our positions. It's obviously important for you to believe that, but it is not true. I can change my mind about anything. Can you?
Incidentally in response to a couple of posts my views are not at all tentative. My beliefs are fluid to a point as I'm not a literalist and see the Bible as being written by people with all of their biases and even agendas. As I said in a post to you recently it isn't important to me whether or not God created something from nothing but I do believe that God is responsible for life. I accept that God might be either a singular intelligence or a collective but consistent intelligence. I see the future on Earth as being completely open and completely unknowable, I simply see the next life as being a reality and that this life will have an impact on our life to come, but I don't worry about it and simply focus on God's request to love the other in this life.
I do see the church as in a period of reformation being led by people such as Polkinghorne, Wright and even Rob Bell. One of the big changes is the effort to understand scripture in context of the time and culture in which they were written and this is being aided by the discovery of more ancient material such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Hopefully we move away from trying to understand the Bible in the context of our own time and culture. This is just Anglicanism and it's simply a way of the Church trying to stay relevant in societies that are rejecting it. Making up a gentler belief system isn't working though is it? People are abandoning it in two directions; in the West it's towards atheism, agnosticism and general disinterest and in the developing countries (and USA) it's moving towards fundamentalism. Justin Welby, your 'pope', has just been rejected by 25% of the Anglican community over blessing homosexual partnerships. ('Blessing' for god's sake! How primitive is that?). The history of your belief system is riddled with schism because it's based on nothing but what individuals prefer to believe at any one time. Justin Welby rejected as leader by conservative Anglicans over same-sex blessings - BBC News Far from being reformed by gaining understanding of historical context, your Church is being whittled away from both ends.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2171 by GDR, posted 03-01-2023 6:22 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2177 by GDR, posted 03-02-2023 7:50 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2178 of 3694 (907947)
03-03-2023 3:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 2177 by GDR
03-02-2023 7:50 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: Frankly in my view that is a strength.
Of course it is.
I don't want a church where there is no room for disagreement. I know that I am not in agreement on many issues with other Anglicans and that is ok. Hopefully after discussing views we can learn from each other.
There is no room for disagreement within dogma. A belief is a belief. That's why 25% of your church has just split from it and rejected its leader over same sex blessings. Note not even marriages. The nice European Anglicans actually want to perform same sex marriages but that is totally politically impossible. That's why there are over 30,000 different ‘Christian’ belief systems. You all have individual beliefs and coalesce around them. You make it up to suit.
NT Wright often says that about a third of what he teaches is wrong. The problem being that he doesn't know which third it is. I'm in the same boat except that the percentage is undoubtedly much higher and no doubt you believe that 30% to be 100% in my case. It's 100% in Wright's case too. Because it's an unevidenced belief. He doesn't know which 30% because he doesn't know anything, he just believes some things and the things he believes are what the culture he was born into by chance taught him. He spends his life in confirmation bias, ‘interpreting' the tiny amount of data available to him in ways that please him.
Frankly my views are often changing as I read a fair bit of theology by people much brighter than yours truly, including at times on this forum. But your views are based only on what you prefer to believe, not on fact. You completely ignore arguments that threaten your belief, they have no effect. Your core beliefs can't be touched because they're not formed from evidence they're formed a personal belief that you speak with god. All the rest is irrelevant.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2177 by GDR, posted 03-02-2023 7:50 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2184 by GDR, posted 03-04-2023 1:52 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2189 of 3694 (907992)
03-04-2023 6:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 2184 by GDR
03-04-2023 1:52 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: I would suggest that there is only a very small part of the Christian church that sees there faith and beliefs as incontrovertibly true. Really? Then why has 25% of just your sect just rejected its leader over a matter of doctrine? And why are there ANY schisms within your belief. You're denying reality.
The point of this thread was to make the point that it isn't the name of the deity that we serve but the nature of the deity we serve. I had great hopes for this. But it just turned into the usual 'I believe' crap.
We have seen Christians prepared to start wars and we have seen Muslims, Hindus, atheists etc fight for love and peace. My belief is in a deity that loves and cares for us and wants us to reflect that same love into the world. I also had great hopes for this, but youl failed to make the argument. You're belief is profoundly Christian and you avoid the problems of hate and suffering, you just can't take them on honestly. It's disappointing.
Yes, I do see Jesus as being an example of one that perfectly modelled the nature of God, and I see confirmation in that in the belief that God resurrected Him. Yes, I believe the Gospel accounts of His resurrection, while acknowledging minor difference in the accounts, all affirming the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Still the clear and important part is God's loving and peaceful nature, and His wanting us to emulate that regardless of doctrine. Yes, I do see Jesus as being an example of one that perfectly modelled the nature of God, and I see confirmation in that in the belief that God resurrected Him. Yes, I believe the Gospel accounts of His resurrection, while acknowledging minor difference in the accounts, all affirming the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Still the clear and important part is God's loving and peaceful nature, and His wanting us to emulate that regardless of doctrine. Then explain hate and suffering. Honestly.
You and others generally say that you have no beliefs, so you really have no position to defend. You simply reject the views and beliefs of others. Kinda the easy way out. However you still presumably have a world view of life based on something. Do you believe that your world view to be true? I need time to explain this. But you won't want to understand it; in my experience believers just can't or won't.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2184 by GDR, posted 03-04-2023 1:52 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2192 of 3694 (908006)
03-05-2023 4:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 2184 by GDR
03-04-2023 1:52 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: You and others generally say that you have no beliefs, so you really have no position to defend. Of course we have beliefs! We're not bloody androids; atheists are fully featured humans with the same set of emotions and feelings that you have. WE JUST DON'T BELIEVE IN GODS. You know, exactly like we don't believe if fairies. It has exactly the same effect and meaning in our lives as not believing in elves - ie none whatsoever. I wish you guys could absorb that fact.
You simply reject the views and beliefs of others. Kinda the easy way out. Yeh right, refusing to go to church as a young teenager was really easy! Pretending to pray in school actually WAS easy but just made the whole thing laughable, listening to those stupid, cringeworthy words. But it wasn't a choice not to believe, it just became an obviously stupid thing to do, so that was that. But generally, I think you'll find that going along with the flow is a helluva lot easier than fighting against it.
However you still presumably have a world view of life based on something. Do you believe that your world view to be true? 'A world view'. It sounds so legitimate doesn't it? So neat and tidy, a simple summation of everything a person believes, prefers, likes and dislikes. A credo. A set of cliches by which to live our lives. Look, people are complicated things, they have complex and contradictory ideas about life that religions try to organise for them. It's simple to have a 'world view' when your life is governed by an all seeing, retribution driven, dictator that 'loves' you and a human theistic belief structure to handle the human side of things. I believe in the institutions humans have created to make our lives better - democracy, a pleural, regulated economy, a health service free at the point of need, life-long education, a balanced and independent criminal justice system, economic fairness and freedom from poverty and all forms of discrimination. I believe in a progressive taxation system that distributes wealth in as fair a way as possible. I believe in safe and warm housing for all. I believe that the polluter should pay and that Trump is a twat. I could go on, but you could sum it up with "I believe in 'do as you would be done by' but do it by building strong, independent, secular institutions to make it happen". No god is going to step in and actually do something to help, ie fix everything he broke 'in the beginning'. Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2184 by GDR, posted 03-04-2023 1:52 PM | | GDR has replied |
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