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Author Topic:   Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 467 of 1104 (907353)
02-21-2023 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Kleinman
02-21-2023 6:33 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Are you going to tell us what adaptive mutations my great-grandfather had and which further adaptive mutations my grandparents had, and the additional adaptive mutations my parents had?
Do you or do you not understand how mutations accumulate?
Cephalanalectomy, stat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Kleinman, posted 02-21-2023 6:33 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Kleinman, posted 02-21-2023 7:06 PM Taq has replied
 Message 469 by AZPaul3, posted 02-21-2023 7:12 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 470 of 1104 (907360)
02-21-2023 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Kleinman
02-21-2023 7:06 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
I'm not the one having trouble explaining how a lineage accumulates a set of adaptive mutations.
Neither am I.
You are even having difficulty differentiating any mutation from an adaptive mutation.
All mutations are passed on in the same way. The same mechanism that passes on neutral and detrimental mutations also passes on beneficial mutations. It's called vertical inheritance.
Do your nested hierarchies explain the difference?
A nested hierarchy isn't an explanation. It is an observation.
Want to try again?
And why do humans have greater reproductive fitness than chimpanzees if all their mutations are neutral?
I never said that all of their mutations were neutral.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Kleinman, posted 02-21-2023 7:06 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Kleinman, posted 02-22-2023 10:45 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 472 of 1104 (907376)
02-22-2023 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Kleinman
02-22-2023 10:45 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
Kleinman writes:
Then do the math, and verify it with experimental evidence, not some story about nested hierarchies that don't fit either the math or experimental evidence.
I already did the math. It's over in this thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20319
As predicted, you are trying to pull the thread off topic so you can hop on your hobby horse.
Adaptive mutations are particular mutations and because of this, the joint probability of getting more than one adaptive mutation is computed by multiplication.
Already covered in this thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20319
You are the one claiming that humans and chimpanzees are related based on these observations.
And I have stated many times now what the explanation for that observation is. Here it is again:
"The explanation for the observation of a nested hierarchy is a combination of common ancestry, vertical inheritance, mutation, and natural selection. You get shared features from common ancestry, and you get lineage specific adaptations from mutations that stay within a lineage due to the lack of horizontal genetic transfer (i.e. vertical inheritance)."
Tell us, how many of those 35,000,000 genetic differences are adaptive mutations?
Do you think that none of them are adaptive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Kleinman, posted 02-22-2023 10:45 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 479 of 1104 (907475)
02-24-2023 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by sensei
02-23-2023 1:57 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
Your problem is, you only look for data that confirms your biased view and discard opposing view based on bad assumptions.
Then please tell me what pattern common ancestry, vertical inheritance, and evolution should produce if it isn't a nested hierarchy.
Parsimony does not determine what is truth and what is not.
"For it is manifest that it is always possible to give a hypothetical explanation of any phenomenon whatever, by referring it immediately to the intelligence of some supernatural agent; so that the only difference between the logic of science and the logic of superstition consists in science recognising a validity in the law of parsimony which superstition disregards. "--George Romanes, "Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution", 1882
I am using the logic of science when I use parsimony. You are using the logic of superstition when you ignore parsimony.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by sensei, posted 02-23-2023 1:57 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 480 of 1104 (907476)
02-24-2023 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by sensei
02-24-2023 4:07 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
According to common ancestry, all organisms are related.
We aren't assuming a nested hierarchy. We observe a nested hierarchy. This observation is the same for everyone regardless of their position.
Do you agree with this or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by sensei, posted 02-24-2023 4:07 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by sensei, posted 02-24-2023 11:29 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 483 of 1104 (907489)
02-24-2023 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by sensei
02-24-2023 11:29 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
You are quoting me where I did not speak about nested hierarchy.
You were responding to a post about the nested hierarchy. The question still stands.
We aren't assuming a nested hierarchy. We observe a nested hierarchy. This observation is the same for everyone regardless of their position.
​
Do you agree with this or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by sensei, posted 02-24-2023 11:29 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by sensei, posted 02-25-2023 6:22 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 504 of 1104 (907638)
02-27-2023 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by sensei
02-25-2023 6:22 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
Where have I said that your assumption was the nested hierarchy?
Frankly, you won't say what assumptions you are talking about. You just say that we are making assumptions. It makes us think that you are just trying to invent a reason to ignore the evidence.
So do we observe a nested hierarchy or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by sensei, posted 02-25-2023 6:22 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 505 of 1104 (907639)
02-27-2023 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 488 by sensei
02-25-2023 7:48 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
I know that evolution from a single celled common ancestor would not come any where close to producing this level of perfection and complexity in such a variety.
Based on what evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by sensei, posted 02-25-2023 7:48 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 506 of 1104 (907640)
02-27-2023 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 494 by sensei
02-25-2023 9:57 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
Evolution from single celled ancestor never happened.
Do you think a scientific theory is falsified by simply pronouncing that it is false?
Talk about assumptions . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by sensei, posted 02-25-2023 9:57 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by sensei, posted 02-27-2023 1:13 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 507 of 1104 (907641)
02-27-2023 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by sensei
02-25-2023 8:27 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
The complexity of information in DNA translating to instructions for building all parts of the living cells with each their specific functions in the body, is evident. Yet you cling on to the idea that it self assembled through progressive steps over time and produced all varieties of DNA by random mutations.
How do you think babies are made? Is each person magically created, or is there a natural process that does exactly what you are describing?
I also showed you the evidence that random mutations are responsible for the differences between species:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20367
Common ancestry is evidence by the nested hierarchy.
So that covers both the similarities and differences between genomes.
Where is your evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by sensei, posted 02-25-2023 8:27 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by sensei, posted 02-27-2023 1:14 PM Taq has replied
 Message 516 by Phat, posted 02-27-2023 3:30 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 530 of 1104 (907775)
02-28-2023 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by sensei
02-27-2023 1:06 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
If you describe life as a nested hierarchy and conclude that it is due to evolution from a common ancestry, then that is your conclusion.
If that is a faulty conclusion, then please tell me what pattern of shared features common ancestry should produce if it isn't a nested hierarchy.
If we find a dead body and you assume that it is from murder, I would say that it could also be from an accident, from disease or from old age.
If we find a body riddled with bullet holes, wouldn't that be evidence for murder?
In the same way, isn't a nested hierarchy evidence for common ancestry?
I don't deny at all, that some sort of nested pattern could arise if life had evolved.
Wouldn't this make a nested hierarchy a piece of evidence in support of common ancestry?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by sensei, posted 02-27-2023 1:06 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by sensei, posted 02-28-2023 1:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 531 of 1104 (907776)
02-28-2023 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by sensei
02-27-2023 1:14 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
Babies grow starting with all necessary DNA alreasdy present. Not from nothing.
Where did that DNA come from? Did it come from a natural source, or a supernatural one?
What do we see all around us? Do we see natural reproduction, or life being created by supernatural deities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by sensei, posted 02-27-2023 1:14 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 533 by sensei, posted 02-28-2023 1:58 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 534 of 1104 (907807)
02-28-2023 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by sensei
02-28-2023 1:58 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
We are discussing how DNA evolved. Not how already evolved DNA forms a body.
Every child is born with 50 to 100 new mutations. No genome is finished evolved. All genomes are evolving, constantly. We learn how DNA evolves by watching it evolve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by sensei, posted 02-28-2023 1:58 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by sensei, posted 03-01-2023 3:57 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 535 of 1104 (907808)
02-28-2023 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by sensei
02-28-2023 1:55 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
If we could turn back time and see how and where life originated, that would prove one or the other.
How life originated is irrelevant to the question of common ancestry and evolution. If God created the first single celled organism that all life evolved from nothing in the theory of evolution would need to be changed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by sensei, posted 02-28-2023 1:55 PM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 537 of 1104 (907868)
03-01-2023 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 536 by sensei
03-01-2023 3:57 AM


Re: problems with detecting design
sensei writes:
And once again you managed to miss the point completely.
I hit it dead center. You are just incapable of responding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by sensei, posted 03-01-2023 3:57 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by sensei, posted 03-01-2023 1:19 PM Taq has replied

  
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