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Author Topic:   When Fascism Comes To America
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 303 (906661)
02-15-2023 7:30 PM


First Some Definitions
Around here we have had discussions regarding Socialism and Fascism. Critics on the ideological Right say that America is becoming too socialist and globalist. Critics on the Left say that America is becoming Fascist and authoritarian. My critics claim that I don't even know what these terms mean, so to begin lets agree on some definitions. I used Diffen.com, as they seemed to have rational definitions.
And to be more precise, I need to break down the difference between Socialism and Communism.
Communism vs Socialism One takeaway here is this quote:
Diffen:
Socialism is sometimes used interchangeably with communism but the two philosophies have some stark differences. Most notably, while communism is a political system, socialism is primarily an economic system that can exist in various forms under a wide range of political systems.
Looking rationally at this definition, I think it is silly to accuse the Left of being Communist, at least in the US. Socialism is another matter.
Diffen:
Class distinctions are diminished. Status derived more from political distinctions than class distinctions.
This would explain the insistence of the peanut gallery that the United States is devolving into fascism. What irritates me, however, is the emphasis on status being defined more from political distinctions than class(economic) distinctions. Socialists seem to insist that everyone agree on socialism and that private property, free enterprise with less government oversight, and economic distinctions be minimized.
Which leads me to ask, how does a guy get ahead? Must I be content to run with the pack and merely get my quota?? In addition, based on the chart, socialism advocates Freedom of religion, but usually promotes secularism.. I suppose I can concede this point since the United States was founded on this point....loosely. I don't like the idea that being of, by, and for the people is not really One Nation under God, but, rather, One nation under freedom of relativism and secularism. It becomes a slippery slope! Jefferson and the founders seemed to park Jesus at the door when it came to government. I'll begrudgingly concede this point since we have separation of church and state and we don't want to end up as a Theocracy!
Moving on...
Capitalism vs Socialism
Diffen:
Capitalism and socialism are somewhat opposing schools of thought in economics. The central arguments in the socialism vs. capitalism debate are about economic equality and the role of government. Socialists believe economic inequality is bad for society, and the government is responsible for reducing it via programs that benefit the poor (e.g., free public education, free or subsidized healthcare, social security for the elderly, higher taxes on the rich). On the other hand, capitalists believe that the government does not use economic resources as efficiently as private enterprises do, and therefore society is better off with the free market determining economic winners and losers.
The U.S. is widely considered the bastion of capitalism, and large parts of Scandinavia and Western Europe are considered socialist democracies. However, the truth is every developed country has some programs that are socialist.
An extreme form of socialism is communism.

Lets comment first before I get to the idea of Fascism.
I think that the United States is more politically and ideologically divided than at any time in our History.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by xongsmith, posted 02-15-2023 7:50 PM Phat has replied
 Message 4 by nwr, posted 02-15-2023 8:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 303 (906668)
02-15-2023 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by xongsmith
02-15-2023 7:50 PM


Re: Phat begins new thread
They need to learn to keep up through personal initiative rather than handouts. I'm for social services such as food stamps and welfare, but it all shouldn't simply be a blank check. But I don't think the progressives understand money or how it is actually created.
My dad worked for 20 cents an hour and was as poor as anyone today. He had no choice. Do you really think if he were given government assistance it would have helped us?
Teaching people that they are owed something and that they need to stand more for equality rather than personal initiative does nothing to help their culture in the long term. At best, they get to eat better for a year or two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by xongsmith, posted 02-15-2023 7:50 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2023 10:30 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 303 (906678)
02-15-2023 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
02-15-2023 10:30 PM


Conservatives vs Liberals
You throw that word racist around like its a snarl word! You can't simply blame all of the economic problems of America on Racism and Discrimination. Its a cop-out.
Moving on...
Now lets examine Conservatives vs Liberals.
Diffen:
The epithet conservative or liberal is used to describe political and economic views and affiliations. The meaning of "conservative" or "liberal" could be different in different contexts - social, economic and political. They also differ in usage in different countries and over time. Conservatives versus Liberals
Political Views
(Right-wing, anti-federalist)- Prefer smaller government, less regulation, most services to be provided by the private sector in a free market, and a literal interpretation of the Constitution.
(Left-wing, federalist.)- Prefer more regulation and services like free universal health care to be provided by the government to all citizens.
***************************************
Economic Views Conservatives: Government should tax less and spend less. Cutting spending to balance the budget should be the priority. Higher income earners should have an incentive to invest (credits). Charity is the responsibility of the people.
Liberals: Government should provide more services to the less fortunate (like health care) and increase taxes if necessary. High-income earners should pay a larger percentage of their income as taxes.

*************************************
(I need to look up Federalist vs Anti-Federalist)
quote:
In U.S. history, anti-federalists were those who opposed the development of a strong federal government and the ratification of the Constitution in 1788, preferring instead for power to remain in the hands of state and local governments. Federalists wanted a stronger national government and the ratification of the Constitution to help properly manage the debt and tensions following the American Revolution. Formed by Alexander Hamilton, the Federalist Party, which existed from 1792 to 1824, was the culmination of American federalism and the first political party in the United States. John Adams, the second president of the United States, was the first and only Federalist president.
I always talk about banking and the Central Banks. It appears that the Federalists(modern Democrats) favored strong Central Banks and Federal oversight of national collective money. Anti Federalists(modern day Republicans) favored local government to manage local money. There are pros and cons to both approaches, but it appears to me that Federalist could someday morph into Globalist. I could be wrong, however. I'm still chewing on this stuff!
Now lets keep learning, shall we, phat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2023 10:30 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 8:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 303 (906680)
02-15-2023 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Theodoric
02-15-2023 10:24 PM


Democracy vs. Republic
So I suppose in your world view Everybody gets a ribbon? Just for showing up? Just for being human? Does personal initiative mean NOTHING to you??
Now lets examine what this website says about a Democracy versus a Republic. I will readily admit that I don't always understand certain terms and concepts and that I need to study the meanings of words and concepts better. This thread is but a start, though doing this allows me to process my political views without swallowing everything I hear about in the media. In addition, it helps me to better define my beliefs and adjust them if necessary.
Diffen:
The key difference between a democracy and a republic lies in the limits placed on government by the law, which has implications for minority rights. Both forms of government tend to use a representational system — i.e., citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. In a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a "pure democracy," the majority is not restrained in this way and can impose its will on the minority.
Most modern nations—including the United States—are democratic republics with a constitution, which can be amended by a popularly elected government. This comparison therefore contrasts the form of government in most countries today with a theoretical construct of a "pure democracy", mainly to highlight the features of a republic.
***************************
Philosophy
In a democracy, the community of people are considered to hold power over how they are governed. Kings and tyrants are seen as threats to the innate rights of the people. As such,all eligible citizens get equal say in decisions.
Republics are in opposition to ruler-ship by a single person. All eligible citizens get equal say in decisions through elected representatives. Unalienable rights of individuals are protected by law to safeguard against a majority abusing the minority

I believe more in individualism than shared collectivism though I support limited socialism (such as Social Security, fire and police departments, local trash pickup and limited government services. I am also not opposed to helping the poor and less fortunate, though I oppose higher taxes. Despite opposing higher taxes, I see this as an inevitable result of the more challenging and indeed difficult economic times that we as a nation are moving towards.
The United States tried isolationism before World War II and yet eventually could not be kept out of that war. The end of the war brought one of Ray Dalios cycles to a reset as the sun finally set on the British Empire and the Age of America ascended marked by Bretton Woods.
Having now a better understanding of the terminology used in defining economic and political systems, I am going to examine Socialism versus Fascism in the next post, paying close attention to the division in US politics and the accusation by some of you that Fascism is a threat in modern day America.
Before I do that, however, I wanted to highlight one other category that this website mentions.
Donald Trump versus Joe Biden(2020 platforms)
And we all know that. My critics accuse me of being pro Trump, but I will argue that based on the definitions in this website breakdown of liberal and conservative ideologies that I am conservative leaning moderate and that I NEVER voted for Trump. I DID vote for Joe Biden, though I consider his plans for expanding government and raising taxes to be something that the United States can no longer afford. I wish that there were a rational alternative to Trump. (My friend mentions Mike Pompeo). I don't know too much about him, but I hear that he is pro-Trump, so the Republican party needs a major overhaul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2023 10:24 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 10:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 303 (906683)
02-16-2023 4:05 AM


Will Fascism Come To America?
Finally we are at the purpose for this topic. Diffen is a website that basically compares any two concepts in context. It is a bit like a dictionary on steroids. As an example, I typed in equality vs freedom. Here is what they say: Equality vs Freedom
Comparing the definitions listed, I see pros and cons in both concepts, though I like the idea that a republic protects individual rights while a democracy is more about equal rights...even at the expense of a given individual.
So lets cut to the chase...
Democracy vs Fascism
Reading that, I see little if any indication that Conservatives are eventually going to become Fascist.
Fascism vs. Socialism
Reading these comparisons, I don't get everyone's concern about Fascism in America.
Note some key comparisons:
Diffen:

Fascism: The union between businesses and the State, with the state telling the business what to do, with nominally private ownership. Corporatism in Italy, National Socialism in Germany. Central planning of National economy. Redistribution of wealth (Nazi).
Socialism: All individuals should have access to basic articles of consumption and public goods to allow for self-actualization. Large-scale industries are collective efforts and thus the returns from these industries must benefit society as a whole.

From what I've read so far, I would agree with neither extreme, although I see Fascist elements in both political parties. One thing is clear. My great fear has always been a one world government, and in order for such a beast to ever exist, the path to such a government would be socialist rather than Fascist. I reaffirm that I am a conservative-leaning moderate and will remain in that position until further notice.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 02-16-2023 8:00 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 303 (906699)
02-16-2023 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
02-16-2023 8:00 AM


Re: Will Fascism Come To America?
I see no overwhelming evidence that the people you mention are fascists. Thats your label. I see them as Republican Conservatives. Trump in particular often says outlandish things to grandstand and I would never vote him in, but your case for Fascism is weak. Do you have anything more substantive?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 303 (906700)
02-16-2023 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Theodoric
02-16-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Democracy vs. Republic
I'll admit that my statement has no actual data to back it up. I will argue, however, that our National Debt is growing and not shrinking. Do you see a plan to pay it down? How about even keeping within budget on the yearly deficit? Certain expenses are necessary, however...that much I will agree with. Both sides will argue about priorities and at this time I have no comment. All that I will say is that the United States has an appointment with reality and the hope is that they will arrange to pay their bills.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 10:45 AM Theodoric has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 303 (906703)
02-16-2023 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Theodoric
02-16-2023 8:44 AM


Re: Conservatives vs Liberals
I don't even know what a Gish Gallop is...im not a Biblical Creationist. What I do know is that before I rush to reply to your posts, I try and read what you accuse me of being ignorant of and RESPOND rather than simply REACT. More than once i've put my foot in my mouth by REACTING rather than RESPONDING.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 8:44 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 303 (906727)
02-16-2023 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
02-15-2023 10:30 PM


Re: Phat begins new thread
Addressing your criticism specifically.
Theo writes:
What do you mean by their culture?
I specifically had the African Americans in mind. Of the many diverse cultures, it is their culture that is mentioned as needing compensation. What was that story out of San Francisco regarding reparations? I never did my homework.
So lets go down the checklist.
Theo writes:
You are still an idiot.
Guilty.
Who is getting handouts?
Nobody yet, apart from crooked politicians.
Who gets a blank check?
Good question. Again, there is nobody specifically I was referring to. I was referring to governmental largess in general. It is always easy to spend public money. The question is how effectively is it being spent.
You have shown absolutely no understanding of finance and economics
Bullshit. Start a topic. The floor needs wiping.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2023 10:30 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 12:56 PM Phat has replied
 Message 23 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 3:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 303 (906790)
02-16-2023 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodoric
02-16-2023 3:00 PM


You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
Theo writes:
The poor white people, of which there are millions more, get a free pass because they are white?
My Father and Mother grew up as poor as your grandparents did. I threw 20 cents an hour out there...it very well could have been 30 cents an hour...I dunno. But I DO know that when my parents married, after the war, they had nothing except the clothes on their back.
My Dad had but one thing. The training he received from the US Navy being a motor machinists mate 2nd class. He knew how to work on engines. And my Uncle taught him how to build houses. People are people. They should not be judged on the color of their skin, their last name, or what their ancestors endured. People should be judged on the content of their character. Ben Shapiro is often vilified not for being Jewish but for being Conservative. I may be guilty of some measure of racism and/or sexism. It is something I need to be aware of and try to rectify.
(Swapped Ben out for a more relevant video that is working)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 3:00 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 303 (906791)
02-16-2023 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taq
02-16-2023 12:56 PM


Re: Phat begins new thread
I will admit that neither I nor my parents endured what many African Americans did.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 303 (906796)
02-16-2023 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Theodoric
02-16-2023 4:22 PM


Re: You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
It seems to me that you just want to fight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 4:22 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 303 (906798)
02-16-2023 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Theodoric
02-16-2023 4:22 PM


Re: You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
Phat writes:
Ben Shapiro is vilified not for being Jewish but for being Conservative. And he is not racist, either.
And why should he be vilified for being Jewish?
He shouldnt. Should I be called out for being white? Privileged? "little"? We all are privileged if either we or our parents work hard and hustle.
Phat, referring to Shapiro writes:
And he is not racist, either.
Theo writes:
Yeah, he is
Are only Conservatives Racist?
Are only white people racist?
Are only Puerto Ricans Racist?
Stop generalizing. You throw the R word anywhere and everywhere it will stick, but then that's the behavior of much of the Left.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 4:22 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 303 (907495)
02-24-2023 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by xongsmith
02-24-2023 1:55 PM


Re: Forgiveness
Lets take ...oh the last 4 Republican presidents. Lets see..Trump,George W.Bush,HW Bush (were he still alive) and Reagan (were HE still alive).
Would you strafe all of them with a machine gun?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by xongsmith, posted 02-24-2023 1:55 PM xongsmith has replied

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 Message 40 by xongsmith, posted 02-24-2023 3:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 303 (907503)
02-24-2023 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by xongsmith
02-24-2023 3:13 PM


Justifiable Extremism?
xongsmith writes:
if i could hold and aim it, and the live TV was on and it was okay with the TV producers, then, yeah ... sometimes I just want to do that.

it's a good thing I can't, right?
Well...I can understand you a bit better. You are not simply a Democrat. You are an Anti-Republican. If you were a Congressman or a Senator representing your political party (I'm assuming that you are a rather far left Democrat) you would *never* vote for anything that any Republican proposed. Am I right?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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