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Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 46 of 128 (906309)
02-09-2023 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by NosyNed
02-09-2023 10:21 PM


Re: Definitions?
NosyNed writes:
Just what is CRT? What is a "woke agenda"? What is wrong with equality over freedom and how do you think it should be?
Not everyone should get a ribbon for having ran the race. The America that my friend saw and believes in rewards initiative. Equality forces society to lower the bar in order to accommodate everyone which in his mind is socialism. As we have discussed before, America already has some socialist policies and I am not in favor of dismantling those. For example, I would *never* privatize Social Security or Medicare/ObamaCare. Socialism has its place, but in this Country, Freedom should supersede Equality. (In my opinion).
CRT is Critical Race Theory, a lofty scholarly discipline that I don't yet understand enough to label. I will mention, however, that singling out people without color in order to raise the bar for people of color will only lead to social conflicts. As for the "Woke Agenda," I see that Encyclopedia Britannica does not mention such an agenda. They do talk about Incrementalism and the ideal of rational decision-making .
quote:
Incrementalism emphasizes the amelioration of concrete problems rather than the pursuit of abstract ideals such as social justice.
I resist extreme Social Activism, which I think the term loosely means.
I usually hear the term "woke agenda" on places such as Fox News.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by NosyNed, posted 02-09-2023 10:21 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by DrJones*, posted 02-10-2023 12:10 AM Phat has replied
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 02-10-2023 4:05 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 02-10-2023 11:14 AM Phat has replied
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 12:45 PM Phat has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2299
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 47 of 128 (906311)
02-10-2023 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
02-09-2023 10:37 PM


Re: Definitions?
CRT is Critical Race Theory, a lofty scholarly discipline that I don't yet understand enough to label.
if you don't understand it how can you be against it?
Freedom should supersede Equality
how can you have freedom without equality?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 10:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 02-10-2023 11:23 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9537
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(4)
Message 48 of 128 (906313)
02-10-2023 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
02-09-2023 10:37 PM


Re: Definitions?
Hey Phat, forgotten this?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 10:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34133
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 49 of 128 (906314)
02-10-2023 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
02-09-2023 10:08 PM


Re: MAGA and 1920's and 1930's Germany
Look up the organization ANTIFA.
Learn the basics Phat.
There is no organization ANTIFA.
There are many who are anti-fascism though.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 10:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 50 of 128 (906317)
02-10-2023 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
02-09-2023 7:32 PM


Re: What Is A Rockefeller Republican?
Phat writes:
And why would I want to find stuff that supported your argument rather than mine?
DUH!
That question is in the Top Ten Stupidest Things Ever Said On This Forum.
How can you possibly DISCUSS anything without knowing the arguments of the other side?
Phat writes:
(Seriously I know why.)
Then why do you ask?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 7:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(5)
Message 51 of 128 (906318)
02-10-2023 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
02-09-2023 10:37 PM


Re: Definitions?
Phat writes:
Not everyone should get a ribbon for having ran the race.
My brother ran in the city marathon every year. He got a medal every year, even though he was in the back of the pack.
Some things are an accomplishment, not just a competition.
Phat writes:
The America that my friend saw and believes in rewards initiative.
It rewards the rich. An ordinary Safeway cashier stays an ordinary Safeway cashier.
Phat writes:
Equality forces society to lower the bar in order to accommodate everyone...
What "bar" exactly? That sounds like a catch-phrase with no thought behind it.
Phat writes:
... which in his mind is socialism.
So are roads. How is that a bad thing?
You and your friend should be roaming the streets in your storm-trooper uniforms, shouting your slogans. Maybe you can learn the English words to the Horst Wessel Lied.
Phat writes:
America already has some socialist policies and I am not in favor of dismantling those.
So you're a hypocrite.
Phat writes:
Freedom should supersede Equality.
Your right-wing handlers want to be free to take YOUR equality away.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 10:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by AZPaul3, posted 02-10-2023 11:33 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 02-10-2023 5:41 PM ringo has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8612
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 52 of 128 (906320)
02-10-2023 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
02-10-2023 11:14 AM


Re: Definitions?
I seriously considered posting the song. What the hell is the matter with me?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 02-10-2023 11:14 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9345
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 53 of 128 (906328)
02-10-2023 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
02-09-2023 10:37 PM


Re: Definitions?
Says the guy that inherited a condo and gambled all his money away. Love to see entitled people criticize the poor and refuse to acknowledge their own privilege and stupidity.
Too personal? Fuck you. 90% percent of your posts are personally offensive.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 10:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 02-10-2023 5:26 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 54 of 128 (906330)
02-10-2023 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
02-09-2023 7:32 PM


Re: What Is A Rockefeller Republican?
quote:
Sun Tzu, Scroll III (Offensive Strategy):
  1. Therefore I say: "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.
  2. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal.
  3. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril."
(Sun Tzu, The Art of War, translation by Samuel B. Griffith, Oxford University Press, 1963)
And why would I want to find stuff that supported your argument rather than mine?
Obviously, to learn what you can about the position that you oppose, or at least do not support.
It's also part and parcel of seeking the truth. Or to quote from memory a radio interview I heard c. 1990 with the then-Governor of Mississippi justifying his push for education reform:
quote:
We have already tried ignorance, so we know that that does not work.
I'm sure that you are well aware of my extremely low opinion of "creation science" and of the extreme moral turpitude displayed and practiced by creationists. Am I just bigoted against them because I "hate God"? No. Rather, my position is based on having studied what their position through their own writings and on decades of very bitter experience trying in vain to discuss their position and claims with them -- HINT: creationists almost invariably refuse to discuss their claims and will do anything they can to derail any and all attempts at honest discussion.
My entry into "creation science" and subsequent opposition to it were based on my sincere attempts to "find stuff that supported [their] argument[s]". How else was I supposed to learn about it?
In 1990 on CompuServe, another member asked me about my position so I wrote an explanation of how I had arrived at it and posted it in the Science & Religion Library on CompuServe (Feb 1990) and it was the first page I reposted on my first website as Why I Oppose Creation Science (or, How I got to Here from There) (filename is warum.html; "warum" is German for "why?"). From that page:
quote:
[NOTE: In your E-Mail message to me (18 Feb 1990), you said:
> You have stated that you have invain, for the last 10 years, found
> no proof that there is a Creator.(unless I miss understood you) The
> information that I have sent you dealt with the subject. [EGW]
You had indeed misunderstood what I had said. I got involved in CS in the first place to find out just what the CSists' evidence for creation was. Like the rest of the public, I had heard "creation scientists" claim repeatedly that they have scientific evidence supporting creation. I wanted to see what their "evidence" is.
All I have found so far has been anti-evolutionary claims based on distorted or misrepresented evidence and false and misleading arguments. If there truly is a creation model, then there must at least exist the evidence used to develop that model. So the apparently total lack of evidence FOR a creation model not only brings into question the validity of the "creation model," but its very existence as well.
In order to offer some testimony and explanation as to why I am so opposed creationism, I hereby write this essay.
In my late high school and early college days (1968 to 1973), I was very much exposed to fundamentalism and so have already been proselytized to repeatedly. I remain unconverted and disdainful of the proselytizing attempts I see, which include the attempts to Christianize our government in order to use it to spread the faith and to impose it on everybody.
Although I first heard about creation science from the fundamentalists associated with Calvary at Sunflower and Fairview (Chuck Smith's church in Costa Mesa, Calif -- later moved one block away to become a large complex on Fairview) and from Chick Publication's "Big Daddy," I didn't pay them much attention. What I remember are vague claims of there being scientific evidence for a young earth and Noah's Flood, of which I only heard two specific claims. First was the story of the living mussel carbon-dated to be thousands of years old. I was immediately skeptical of it, but did not have any other basis to reject it at the time. Since then, I finally found a reference to the scientific article that claim was based on and looked it up. The creationists had misrepresented that article, so I was correct to have rejected it.
Also, there was the infamous story of the NASA computer program that ran calculations of lunar positions back through time, only to stop abruptly at 4004 BC with the error message, "There was nothing before this date." Then when they restarted the program from there and ran it back to the present, they found a day to be missing. The only explanation for the missing day was the passage in Joshua (?), in which the sun was commanded to stand still. Even then, I knew that the story grossly contradicted the function and capabilities of computers and so was impossible. It surprised me when, in this age of increased computer literacy, the story resurfaced a couple years ago (ie, in the late 1980's, about a decade into the personal computer age, in the Sunday supplement magazine in our local newspaper).
My interest in creationism was renewed at the turn of the decade (c. 1980) by sporadic reports that would filter in to North Dakota (where I was stationed), by a presentation by Dr. Duane Gish at UND (which I could not attend -- the presentation, that is), and by an article in Science 81. Since creationists were obviously still around, I was curious to see if there was anything to their claims, i.e. what their evidence is. After nine years of looking, I have found their evidence to be non-existent (and even decades after that, still no evidence to be found).
My essay goes on to recount my many discoveries about "creation science".
The point is that it is very important to learn about those people and positions that are in opposition to us, especially what they themselves teach. That is why my NCO Leadership School taught us Marxism and Communism, not because the USAF wanted to turn us into Commies, but rather to make us more effective Cold Warriors by knowing our enemy (as per General Sun Tzu) and because we know that ignorance does not work.
The example set by the other side, the creationists, demonstrates in real life Verse 33 from Sun Tzu: "If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 02-09-2023 7:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 55 of 128 (906341)
02-10-2023 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Theodoric
02-10-2023 12:45 PM


Re: Definitions?
First off, I DO acknowledge my privilege and stupidity in my earlier struggles with addictions.
As far as offending you, I don't worry as much about that because your ideology basically says that one is either part of the problem or part of the solution. Everything is one way with you and several others whom I communicate with.
By coddling people who were offended and hurt in life, we are not helping them.
Granted we don't help them by being racist or continuing to make the mistakes our ancestors made, but I might mention that many of the "disciples" of CRT, educated and elitist that they claim to be, view virtually ALL White People as racist due to the invisible knapsack of privilege that they were born with. I'm not on board with that type of activism as a solution in our country or on this planet. I will say that if a persuasive enough argument is presented to me as to why I should be on board, I might listen. I'm not simply some white privileged ass. Im human and have had my own struggles in life...struggles that no one at this forum knows about. Tell me to f**k off if you want...you are a gruff old man who wears his heart on his sleeve, but I still listen to you.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 12:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 56 of 128 (906342)
02-10-2023 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
02-10-2023 11:14 AM


Re: Definitions?
ringo writes:
Your right-wing handlers want to be free to take YOUR equality away.
You can't have equality without freedom. Ask the people in China. They are neither equal nor free.
ringo writes:
My brother ran in the city marathon every year. He got a medal every year, even though he was in the back of the pack.

Some things are an accomplishment, not just a competition.
I'll buy that.
Phat writes:
America already has some socialist policies and I am not in favor of dismantling those.
ringo writes:
So you're a hypocrite.
Why is everything so extreme with you? We both say similar things about each other. I call you a Marxist and you call me a fascist. We need to rediscover that wonderfully gray area known as moderate. It is not hypocritical to find a consensus.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 02-10-2023 11:14 AM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-10-2023 5:46 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 58 by jar, posted 02-10-2023 6:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4563
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 57 of 128 (906343)
02-10-2023 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
02-10-2023 5:41 PM


Re: Definitions?
You can't have equality without freedom.
But you can have both Dumbass. AND FREEDOM COMES WITH REPONSIBILITIES!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 02-10-2023 5:41 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34133
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 58 of 128 (906347)
02-10-2023 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
02-10-2023 5:41 PM


Learn the basics
You continue to display your utter ignorance in just about every possible area of life.
Of course it is possible to have both greater equality and freedom.
You need to stop simply parroting the meaningless slogans that are the providence of most religions and the current fascist GOP.
Begin here.
Phat, you really don't have to be stupid unless you choose to be stupid.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 02-10-2023 5:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 6:47 PM jar has not replied
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 02-10-2023 11:11 PM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9345
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 59 of 128 (906348)
02-10-2023 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
02-10-2023 6:44 PM


Re: Learn the basics
He is willfully stupid and will continue until the day he dies.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 02-10-2023 6:44 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-10-2023 7:38 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4563
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 60 of 128 (906349)
02-10-2023 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Theodoric
02-10-2023 6:47 PM


Re: Learn the basics
He is willfully stupid and will continue until the day he dies.
His self-radicalization continues and it looks to me like he has passed the point of no return. His brain has had too much sugar for too many years.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 6:47 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2023 8:43 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 71 by Dredge, posted 02-11-2023 9:34 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
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