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Author Topic:   Picayune Gods & Those Who Market Them
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 31 of 153 (905868)
02-04-2023 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
02-04-2023 12:49 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Tangle writes:
"Socialism and communism both place much value on creating a more equal society and removing class privilege. The biggest difference between them is that socialism is compatible with liberty and democracy, while communism depends on an authoritarian state to create an “equal society” that denies basic liberties"
In addition, socialism and capitalism can exist side by side, as they do in Europe, the UK, Canada and Australia, but communism and capitalism cannot.
Communism quickly devolves into fascism. Capitalism without socialism also quickly devolves into fascism.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2023 12:49 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2023 2:11 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 32 of 153 (905872)
02-04-2023 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by xongsmith
02-04-2023 1:57 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
It's also a matter of degree and perception. I believe I live in a pleural society that works with a balance of socialist and capitalist principles. As does the US, it's just that one side does not wish to think it.
The balance swings in either direction but is not allowed to swing too far. Though under Trump it very nearly did.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by xongsmith, posted 02-04-2023 1:57 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 02-04-2023 2:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 153 (905873)
02-04-2023 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
02-04-2023 2:11 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
We are just mad because we are resisting the inevitable contraction of being a onetime global empire. You guys experienced the same contraction after WW II. You never had a Trump but you did have a Margaret Thatcher. In addition, you accepted the United States as your heir. We will NEVER accept a Communist China as our successor. This could be why the world is a mess.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2023 2:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2023 2:49 PM Phat has replied
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 3:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 34 of 153 (905877)
02-04-2023 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
02-04-2023 2:15 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
We are just mad because we are resisting the inevitable contraction of being a onetime global empire. You guys experienced the same contraction after WW II. You never had a Trump but you did have a Margaret Thatcher. In addition, you accepted the United States as your heir. We will NEVER accept a Communist China as our successor. This could be why the world is a mess.
Re-read that mess and see if you can say why I might find problems with it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 02-04-2023 2:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 02-05-2023 10:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 153 (905911)
02-05-2023 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tangle
02-04-2023 2:49 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
OK.
Tangle writes:
I believe I live in a pleural society that works with a balance of socialist and capitalist principles. As does the US, it's just that one side does not wish to think it.
So to be clear is your issue with Trump specifically or with "the side that does not wish to think it"?
In defense of the side I am on, I will never accept any sort of government that prefers equality over freedom. Human nature will scuttle that boat every time.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2023 2:49 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nwr, posted 02-05-2023 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2023 11:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 3:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(4)
Message 36 of 153 (905913)
02-05-2023 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
02-05-2023 10:32 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
In defense of the side I am on, I will never accept any sort of government that prefers equality over freedom.
Yet you go with an authoritarian religion rather than the freedom of atheism.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 02-05-2023 10:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(7)
Message 37 of 153 (905920)
02-05-2023 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
02-05-2023 10:32 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
So to be clear is your issue with Trump specifically
Oh I definitely have a very specific issue with Trump.
or with "the side that does not wish to think it"?
I have an issue with your right wingnuts that think they don't live is a socialist country. Of course they do! Just not as socialist as other countries. But more generally they, like you, think socialism is communism.
In defense of the side I am on, I will never accept any sort of government that prefers equality over freedom.
You can't have freedom without equality you dimwit. We've done this before. You've been hoodwinked by the rich. A poisoned American dream. There's some deep irony there. You keep yourself down because you want the chance to be individually rich. All very Christian.
Human nature will scuttle that boat every time.
And yet the most equal societies on earth are also the happiest. How do you explain that?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 02-05-2023 10:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Theodoric, posted 02-05-2023 11:27 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 38 of 153 (905921)
02-05-2023 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
02-05-2023 11:21 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
How do you explain that?
But, but, but Jesus and, and, and socialism.
Phat and fundies writes:
"word salad and fallacies"

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2023 11:21 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 153 (905951)
02-05-2023 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
02-04-2023 2:15 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
We will NEVER accept a Communist China as our successor.
You'll accept what you get.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 02-04-2023 2:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 02-05-2023 3:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 40 of 153 (905953)
02-05-2023 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
02-05-2023 10:32 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
I will never accept any sort of government that prefers equality over freedom.
Stop blustering as if you would ever lift a finger. You'll accept what you get.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 02-05-2023 10:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 153 (905955)
02-05-2023 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
02-05-2023 3:29 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Turn that statement around on yourself. Would you accept what you got? No matter what? You seem to frame your arguments as we vs me. I am we. You are we. We are we.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 3:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 3:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(6)
Message 42 of 153 (905957)
02-05-2023 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
02-05-2023 3:33 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
Would you accept what you got?
Of course I would. I have. I do. I have never had a federal government that I voted for. I didn't vote for my provincial government. I didn't vote for my civic government.
I accept what democracy gives me.
I have said before that one of the strengths of a mature democracy is that even if we lose the election, we don't go up in the hills with our rifles and start a revolution. We wait for the next election and try to VOTE the bad guys out.
So stop your stupid bluster about what you will never accept. Accepting is the right thing to do. Even your banana republic should understand that.
Phat writes:
You seem to frame your arguments as we vs me.
I try to frame my arguments as decency vs you.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 02-05-2023 3:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(5)
Message 43 of 153 (906010)
02-06-2023 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
02-04-2023 11:50 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
I would, however, rather bash "socialism" than I would bash the US. Socialism wont work for one simple reason. Human nature.
Then explain how we would be better off without:
1. Medicare
2. Social Security
3. Public Schools
4. Public highways
5. Publicly funded police and fire departments

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 02-04-2023 11:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2023 12:41 PM Taq has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(5)
Message 44 of 153 (906024)
02-06-2023 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Taq
02-06-2023 12:05 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Just like every conservative he just wants the socialism that benefits him.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Taq, posted 02-06-2023 12:05 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 02-06-2023 2:41 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 153 (906059)
02-06-2023 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Theodoric
02-06-2023 12:41 PM


Dissolve The Bill And Move On
Phat writes:
I would, however, rather bash "socialism" than I would bash the US. Socialism wont work for one simple reason. Human nature.
Taq writes:
Then explain how we would be better off without:
1. Medicare
2. Social Security
3. Public Schools
4. Public highways
5. Publicly funded police and fire departments
We wouldnt be better off without them.
Theodoric writes:
Just like every conservative he just wants the socialism that benefits him.
Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. Socialism that altruistically and blissfully ignorantly "raises all boats" is or will become a globalist socialist agenda. Yes, there is that term again...which all of you deny is happening.
I even asked ringo point blank in an earlier thread the following questions:
quote:
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Globalism is not necessarily a bad thing.
It is if it runs over the US middle class.
ringo writes:
What's so special about the US middle class that it deserves a pass from reality?
To repeat, globalism IS. Whatever the consequences to the US middle class, globalism IS.
Phat writes:
We are not simply going to suffer in order to be the heroes that save the planet.
ringo writes:
Yes. We are. Even IF we manage to alleviate the situation somewhat, we are going to suffer.
Phat writes:
The entire world must share the bill.
ringo writes:
Don't be stupid. YOU have no power to make the rest of the world do anything. You can only do what YOU can do.
If the wonderful US middle class foots the WHOLE bill and single-handedly stops global warming, it will be for YOUR benefit. So what if the rest of the world rides on your coat-tails and shares the benefits?
And if NOBODY but the wonderful US middle class lifts a finger and human civilization is destroyed, it will be YOU who suffers. So what if you have the rest of the world to blame? What do you gain by assigning blame?

I suppose it does no good to assign blame. Which is why I reject the whole reparations arguments as ultimately harmful more than helpful.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2023 12:41 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 02-06-2023 3:36 PM Phat has replied
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 02-07-2023 11:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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