Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Science requires faith, chat gtp agrees.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 79 (905789)
02-03-2023 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by riVeRraT
02-03-2023 10:39 AM


Defund The Bots
Hey RiverRat! Long time no see...
I really like this opening series of statements. Were you Mod-it RC? The questions are well articulated and the answers as well. Was that a Bot giving the answers or is there an astute critic who understands science by definition and who does not let their own personal biases get in the way?
A couple of comments:
Science is based on the scientific method, which is a systematic approach to understanding the natural world that emphasizes empirical evidence, replication, and skepticism. In contrast to faith, which is a belief in something without the need for proof or evidence, the scientific method is based on the collection and interpretation of evidence and data, and requires that scientific explanations and theories be supported by empirical evidence that can be independently verified and tested.
In the bible, many are called (All?) yet few are chosen (do they choose?). Seemingly the Bible says that only few will in fact choose Jesus. Contrast this with the scientific methodology which requires skepticism(a natural bias against belief) replication(versus incredulous stories and PRATTS refuted by atheists and mythicists) and above all else evidence.
Science is based on the scientific method, which is a systematic approach to understanding the natural world that emphasizes empirical evidence, replication, and skepticism. In contrast to faith, which is a belief in something without the need for proof or evidence, the scientific method is based on the collection and interpretation of evidence and data, and requires that scientific explanations and theories be supported by empirical evidence that can be independently verified and tested.
The whole idea of independent verification and testing, while a good idea, virtually ensures that belief will never gain a foothold in the larger community since it is seemingly required that everybody vote for it before it is accepted as peer reviewed. In other words, ALL will see and ALL will verify and accept the reality (versus belief or "fantasy) or ALL will reject such theory as illogical, irrational, and unprovable (NOT evident).
When applying scientific knowledge and understanding to our lives, we are relying on the well-established and widely accepted scientific explanations and theories that have been developed through the scientific method and have been supported by a substantial body of empirical evidence.
This is essentially Stiles argument. While he personally is open to evidence of God, he clams that none is found and that the consensus within the scientic methodology of thinking is unanimous...God does NOT exist.
While it is true that all scientific knowledge is provisional and subject to revision based on new evidence, the scientific method and the extensive peer-review process that scientific findings undergo make it highly unlikely that established scientific explanations will be overturned by new evidence.
And this is why most thinkers at EvC Forum will likely never change their minds. They figure that unless God whaps them upside the head, no new evidence will ever EVER emerge. In addition, they buy into the mythicist argument which discredits the Bible story in general.
The phrase "strong basis for confidence" is subjective, as different people may have different levels of confidence in the reliability of scientific knowledge based on various factors such as their own personal experiences, beliefs, and perspectives.
However...
relying on science in our daily lives is not the same as taking a leap of faith in a religious or supernatural belief, as science is based on a systematic and evidence-based approach to understanding the natural world, and the scientific method provides a strong foundation for our confidence in established scientific explanations.
You must admit that it is a fairly solid argument. To continue...
Science and the knowledge and technologies that it has produced have the potential to benefit society and improve our lives, but they also have the potential to cause harm if not used responsibly. This is why it is important for scientific knowledge to be developed, used, and communicated in a way that is transparent, ethical, and accountable. Science should be subject to ongoing evaluation and revision to ensure that it continues to advance our understanding of the world and to minimize any negative consequences of its applications.
Since I believe in a spirtual war of sorts, I am more pessimistic than the average humanist/scientist, who will argue that the evidence shows that humans are all we got...so best to trust our evolving technology and knowledge. And i will admit that I am fatalistic at times.
we need to be mindful of the potential risks and benefits of science and technology, and work to minimize the risks while maximizing the benefits. This requires ongoing critical evaluation and responsible use of scientific knowledge and technology.
I think it should be a personal decision whether or not to receive a vaccine. Personally, I have had 4 shots and feel fine. I would resist a mandatory government order that I MUST get shots, however.
AZCosmic Mystic writes:
Why is this here?
Because we seek to fight your arrogance in the shamanic "worship" of science, O Arizona Vortex Lover!
Stile writes:
...those solidified into chasing a certain, specific goal, will see themselves "win" that goal no matter what evidence is actually shown to them - and prove that they are not after the truth in any meaningful way.
Actually I think that is true. There will never be universal consensus among humans on the best path forward.
riVeRrat writes:
What I read here is I outsmarted gtp then.
AI will eventually dominate our right brains, but "it" will never best our left brained empathy,love of and search for truth. AI by definition can and will NEVER be truth.
Taq writes:
Infectious diseases are not a personal choice. We spread diseases between each other. This makes it a social decision, one that can and should be part of decision making at a governmental level. When you refuse a vaccine you are potentially threatening the life of others.

With that said, we can certainly have a discussion about whether a government should require citizens to be vaccinated. However, let's do away with the illusion that this is somehow a decision a person makes that has no impact on others.
Likely what will (or should) happen is that though individuals will and should have the final say on getting vaccines, they will also have the responsibility to self quarantine in extreme situations.
Tangle writes:
What I read here was a computer wishing it could slap your face.
As I said before, the "computer" will never best us in Left Brain thinking. If it ever did, we would be robbed of our basic humanity. The day a Bot slaps my face (or pulls me over for a traffic stop) is the day I pull out a shotgun and blast the thing. Defund The Bots!


The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by riVeRraT, posted 02-03-2023 10:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by riVeRraT, posted 02-03-2023 11:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 79 (905790)
02-03-2023 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
02-03-2023 11:49 AM


Bigger Fuse
ringo writes:
You need a bigger fuse
Only if I fully embrace skepticism, which is one of the reasons you tossed out the deities yet kept their message. Perhaps your Left Brain will save you. Your Right Brain is fried. Evidence Schmevidence!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 02-03-2023 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2023 5:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2023 5:59 PM Phat has replied
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 02-04-2023 10:50 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 79 (905795)
02-03-2023 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
02-03-2023 5:07 PM


Re: Bigger Fuse
Interesting. I had the two sides mixed up anyway. Left=logical while Right =empathetic and creative. Your source seems to suggest that normal people use both sides and there is no division. The early research was done on people with a disconnect between the two sides.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2023 5:07 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2023 9:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 79 (905796)
02-03-2023 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tangle
02-03-2023 5:59 PM


Re: Bigger Fuse
Tangle writes:
see you've abandoned your thinking skills course.
Nonsense. I have abandoned nothing. What I won't easily or readily (or willingly) do is abandon my inner certainty regarding my belief. I'm not as weak as the lot of you were.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2023 5:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2023 2:48 AM Phat has replied
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 02-04-2023 10:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 79 (905827)
02-04-2023 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
02-04-2023 2:48 AM


Re: Bigger Fuse
I just elaborated a bit in my response to Percy Message 2001
but I couldn't find your exact post asking me that specific question so I'll just answer it here.
My "religious" friends would likely warn me about abandoning the truth that I know and setting it aside as you suggest one *must* do if they honestly want to utilize critical thinking.
Tangle writes:
You can't hope to even begin a critical thinking course unless you're prepared to accept that you might be wrong about previously held beliefs and preconceived ideas.
Well, yet again im a rebel. I am taking the course and I will keep in mind that I could be wrong about certain thinking patterns and ideas...but I'm not a 12 year old Catholic who never met Jesus and decided to throw his beliefs in the gutter as his scientific and rational mind took flight. You have some preconceived ideas that you might need to let go of too. One of them is that the Bible is a poor source of wisdom. You people have nothing better.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2023 2:48 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2023 11:18 AM Phat has replied
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2023 11:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 79 (905829)
02-04-2023 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Theodoric
02-03-2023 9:38 PM


Re: Bigger Fuse
How can I dispute what I haven't studied?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2023 9:38 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 02-04-2023 12:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 79 (905831)
02-04-2023 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
02-04-2023 11:02 AM


To assume makes an ass out of you and me!
ringo, addressing riVeRrat writes:
Don't make assumptions about me.
Feisty, arent we? Better use some of your bullets...because I'll make assumptions about you all week long and twice on Sunday. Granted I will keep revising my assumptions as you give me more written ammunition to work with. And FYI...you make assumptions about me based on what I write ALL the time.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 02-04-2023 11:02 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 02-04-2023 11:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 79 (905832)
02-04-2023 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by AZPaul3
02-04-2023 11:18 AM


Re: Bigger Fuse
Oh, AZ! You and Becky Thatcher would have made a cute couple!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2023 11:18 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2023 11:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 79 (905833)
02-04-2023 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
02-04-2023 10:50 AM


Evidence Schmevidence
ringo writes:
When you come to an intersection, you don't take it on faith that there will be no other cars. You skeptically look both ways.
Im skeptical about stuff that I dont know or cannot see.
You don't have to pretend to accept science any more. You might as well be a full-blown YEC.
I accept the science as to how old the planet likely is. Im skeptical about anything to do with YEC, but there is a slim possibility that we *all* are wrong.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 02-04-2023 10:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 02-04-2023 11:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 79 (905835)
02-04-2023 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by riVeRraT
02-03-2023 11:05 PM


Go You
In this day and age, I'd rather trust God than I would humanity. I try and love them all, however. Im just not gonna buy into an eventual global government...if such a Beast would ever rise up.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by riVeRraT, posted 02-03-2023 11:05 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 79 (905875)
02-04-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by riVeRraT
02-04-2023 1:43 PM


Re: typical
riVeRrat writes:
I will say it once again, I have never lied in this forum. What purpose would that serve? I originally came here to share the love I felt from God. What happened was my faith got tested, and debating here actually helped define my faith. Atheists afterall are great bullshit detectors. Unfortunately too many people turned out to be just mean people, and I don't have time in my life for that. I see nothing has changed, and it even seems worse.
It is worse because the world is getting worse. I am the mean guy here...the one whom everyone hates/disagrees with and dog piles me. Its OK, i accept the role that Faith once had. The reason I am so mean is because I'm human. I say things that most conservatives would never admit publicly.
I don't hate poor people, but I'll be damned if I will ever support a socialist agenda. I do believe that stuff in the Bible will happen. I think that China will let itself become more socialist and less communist as they become the global leader, and will in fact attempt to marry Western Capitalism. They have already stolen half our secrets and made them their own!! (and when I say "they" I mean the CCP) The handwriting is on the wall. The antichrist won't be Trump.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2023 1:43 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2023 10:06 PM Phat has replied
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 3:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 79 (905902)
02-05-2023 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by riVeRraT
02-04-2023 10:06 PM


Rat Grapples With The Peanut Gallery
I have thick skin. I make only one basic assumption around here--that "they" will disagree with me. I expect it. It appears that you and GDR expect the peanut gallery to repent of their independent critical thinking conclusions and defect en masse to ...well, to wherever one would expect them to defect to. It will never happen, just as reparations will never happen. (Canada must have lost their mind on that one! Once you start down that slippery slope, you end up with mass social revolution! )
Maybe you should see what AI thinks. I used to play around with Cleverbot. At times, the AI answers cut through the bullshit known as bias that we humans are saddled with.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2023 10:06 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 3:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 79 (905956)
02-05-2023 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
02-05-2023 3:14 PM


Re: Rat Grapples With The Peanut Gallery
This is the strongest response I've ever seen from you. I hope I'm not crossing the line into attacking you personally.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 3:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 02-05-2023 3:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024