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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1818 of 3694 (905163)
01-19-2023 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1816 by ringo
01-19-2023 10:55 AM


Re: Theo: Belief Is Nobodies Damn Business
ringo writes:
But you don't discuss. You only opinionate.
Every book ever written is based on the opinion of the author. Furthermore, whats different about a discussion and an opinion? A discussion is when two or more insert their informed (or uninformed) opinions into the record of the discussion for later criticism and peer review.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1816 by ringo, posted 01-19-2023 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1820 by ringo, posted 01-19-2023 11:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1825 of 3694 (905208)
01-19-2023 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1823 by Percy
01-19-2023 3:31 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
I concede that whining goes both ways.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1823 by Percy, posted 01-19-2023 3:31 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1826 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 3:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1827 of 3694 (905210)
01-19-2023 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1821 by Theodoric
01-19-2023 11:15 AM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
Theo writes:
Please point out my whining or are you lying again? I have made it very clear that I am extremely privileged.
You want to see unprivileged? Let me introduce you to some cousins.
How about young adults with AIDS that we support in South Africa? Most of them have made or are making a good life. Even without privilege and without whining. Those without privilege know that whining will do no good. They leave the whining to the privileged.
So in some ways, we are alike, you and I. We are both privileged(by global standards)
We both have poorer cousins within our family. The main difference is that you are burning down the very house you live in due to your politics. You seek to vanquish the entire support system that made America great and that allowed you and I to go to school and get the education we needed. I know you don't believe that the economy is weak and I won't belabor the point. Perhaps another difference between us is that I feel entitled to some privilege because my Dad worked hard to pave the way. Children of educated elitists often appeal to Uncle Sam to help them. And make no mistake. You are a proudly educated elitist. (That's not an insult, by the way)

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1821 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 11:15 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1829 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 4:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1830 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 4:14 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1832 by nwr, posted 01-19-2023 5:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1828 of 3694 (905211)
01-19-2023 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1826 by Theodoric
01-19-2023 3:52 PM


Re: There is harm, there is foul
What sort of personal apology do you want from me?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1826 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 3:52 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1831 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 4:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1838 of 3694 (905263)
01-21-2023 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1836 by GDR
01-19-2023 8:20 PM


Re: Meaning and Purpose
Im really stirring the pot this morning! Usually I try and keep it amiacable and on a hypothetical level around here, but occasionally as I explore my own beliefs and test myself against what I understand others to believe in or think or rationalize or prioritize, I ignite some sparks.
So here is my 2 cents regarding the recent posts in this topic.
Back in the Great Depression, my Grandmother and Grandfather had a mild disagreement. They lived in a large house and had 5 kids. Before the Depression, my Granddad was a college professor at the University of Missouri. He lost his job and then started a restaurant. The depression was a burden for everyone at that time and in fact there was one time where my Grandfather became so depressed at the prospect of not being able to feed and provide for his family (and) had to close the restaurant--he lost it in the depression. Grandmother, meanwhile, was so worried about everyone in town. She often invited the homeless men to share a meal with the family. Granddad insisted, however, that they stay outside of the house and made her feed them on the porch. He did not trust strangers to mingle with his family.
Theodoric writes:
I have made it very clear that I am extremely privileged ...
Grandma thought the same way. She felt that if the family had enough food they ought to share. Grandpa reluctantly agreed but insisted that the poor stay out of our house. On a global scale, we here in America are still "extremely privileged" but it is not our duty to invite everyone into our "house". (As you all might guess, I am more like my Granddad than my sweet grandmother.)
Percy writes:
Other things being equal, any large group of people is going to be just like any other large group of people with regard to personal characteristics like degree of whininess or a victim mentality.
True. In addition, any large group of people (the US voting public, perhaps) is going to have some who are more like my grandmother and others who are more like my grandfather. Moving on...
GDR writes:
...we can obviously see that there are many, and often conflicting views, about the purpose and meaning of people. This then goes back to my original point in this thread, which has gone a million miles off topic. I suggest that the foundational meaning and purpose of our lives is representative of the god we worship regardless of whether we assign a name or not to this creative intelligence.
For some of us, the meaning that we assign is based on the value we were taught both at home and at church.(or other clubs and groups that one purposefully participates in)
Taq writes:
Phat, are you at all aware of US history? I mean, AT ALL AWARE???
A college education used to be affordable to everyone in the US. Why? Government subsidies, what conservatives now call socialism. In fact, a state run school is socialism. Why are tuitions at state schools unaffordable to the majority of US citizens today? Conservatives have eroded support of schools.
Im glad that you bring up issues that should affect my beliefs and decision-making going forward. This whole battle between liberals and conservatives is seen by each of us in different ways. In my mind, there should be no battle. In my grandparents case, there was no battle because there was compromise. Had there been two people, each of which believed they were right and neither offering to concede any ground, there would be war within that house.
Taq writes:
Did you father expect Medicare and Social Security? I bet he did.
IIRC, he never mentioned it but I would imagine that he felt entitled to it...and justifiably so. If he had, like my grandmother, let every human rights case into the country(house in this analogy) his government would have become overburdened with supporting so many mouths to feed. Again, as my grandfather did, we have to look at the big picture. Is it our job to feed every needy mouth in town or should we worry about our families(our own) first? (sorry i'm conflating two topics here at the forum)
Theodoric writes:
I am not burning anything down. I am working to raise the house up and make the foundation stronger.
Well if so, quit inviting everyone in to the house. Worry about feeding our families before inviting more in.
nwr writes:
My parents supported me as a child and through my education. I do not expect any entitlement to privilege beyond that. I happen to believe in the American principle that all men are created equal -- and that's something that you seem to reject.
The United States is privileged. We are blessed with resources and the freedom to use them responsibly. It is not our job nor (should it be) our goal to spread our wealth to the whole world with no rational prospect of a return on investment. We need to look out for our own first.
Percy writes:
Why must life have a purpose? Maybe it just is.
And yet we all (even unbelievers) have an inner spark of empathy towards other humans. Again my question: Should we be quick to help other families before helping our own?
Percy writes:
It would never occur to me to worship anything. Seems to me that intelligence of any worth would tell people attempting to worship it to please just stop.
Perhaps, but it would seem logical that we understood "it" to be a superior intelligence to our own. We would naturally seek its favor (if we accepted it) and listen to what (The Spirit) tells us.
GDR writes:
I see people donating vast sums of money for others in need that might even be on the other side of the world I see people dedicated to the welfare of animal life or even for the planet even though they won't be alive to see the results. That is where I find God.
I believe that God is with us...all of us...and that He is judging every idle word that comes out of our mouths. I better be careful!
Theo writes:
Any god, being, whatever, that demands or wants to be worshipped does not deserve to be even thought about. Never mind being treated with any kind if respect.
Well, any human that even entertains the idea of a God would be a fool to imagine themselves on the same plane. (and are also unworthy of respect)
GDR writes:
I contend we worship God by following His call to love our neighbor and care for other life forms and for the planet itself.
Do you believe in open borders? WWJD?



The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1836 by GDR, posted 01-19-2023 8:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1840 by GDR, posted 01-21-2023 6:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1841 by Percy, posted 01-22-2023 10:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1845 of 3694 (905317)
01-23-2023 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1844 by Dredge
01-23-2023 10:27 AM


Dredging Up An Argument
Dredge writes:
So-called Christians who don't believe in the Real Presence aren't true Christians. Their watered-down version of Christianity is unbiblical, amateurish, erroneous and fake.
Fair enough. What, though of self professed Roman Catholics who don't believe in Apostolic Succession? Surely you agree that Pope Francis is not a direct spiritual descendant of the Apostle Peter?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1844 by Dredge, posted 01-23-2023 10:27 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1854 of 3694 (905356)
01-24-2023 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1853 by Stile
01-24-2023 2:41 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Gravity is an impersonal force. It makes no impression upon human behavior. Jesus, by contrast, is (according to scripture) The living truth. The only way to "The Father"..ie GOD.
The once and forever sacrifice designed to save us from human mediocrity and failure.
You will disagree (likely) due to the fact that you have never been personally impacted by Jesus or the Holy Spirit. You will simply say you have found no evidence favorable to my conclusion. Fair enough.
Stile writes:
-I'm open to learning more
-I'm open to having the entire current knowledge over-turned and thrown out, if something "better fitting of all the evidence" comes along and replaces it.
My belief, dogmatic though it may well be presupposes that "better" or "more favorable" evidence is in fact a deception.
Matt 12:39-41 writes:
39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
At this point, in the interest of further inquiry, you may well counsel me to "throw the book away" for a moment and examine rational "evidence" or at least a path towards a different conclusion. All I can say to you is that this is hard for me to do. When one thinks they have the final answer, they do not simply throw it away or set it aside in the hopes of a more favorable answer. We see it as a trap.
Stile writes:
If you really think that you "know something" that evidence could not possibly change your mind on... I don't understand how you think you "know everything."
I only claim to know one thing. He knows everything. If you asked 1000 believers they would overwhelmingly agree with that assessment. If you asked 1000 non believers they would claim that I was arrogant, ignorant, or both. Overwhelmingly. The gulf exists between us, unfortunately.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1853 by Stile, posted 01-24-2023 2:41 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1855 by Stile, posted 01-24-2023 3:46 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1874 by ringo, posted 01-27-2023 11:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1856 of 3694 (905370)
01-24-2023 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1855 by Stile
01-24-2023 3:46 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Noted. I can't argue with your logic except to say I won't set aside my belief unless the counter-evidence is quite persuasive. So far, I've not seen evidence of that.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1855 by Stile, posted 01-24-2023 3:46 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1857 by Stile, posted 01-25-2023 8:20 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1858 of 3694 (905377)
01-25-2023 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1857 by Stile
01-25-2023 8:20 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
If you're actually looking for truth, then there's no reason to avoid our "best method for identifying truth" which entails setting beliefs aside, and following the evidence wherever it leads.
You don't understand believers. One does not simply "set beliefs aside." If we follow anything, it is going to be our belief, rather than a vague concept of evidence. Granted we are all called to pray for non-believers and attempt to understand them We are also called (strongly) to love them and not to fight against flesh (except our own!) From your perspective, beliefs can be set aside as easily as scientific theory.
For many believers, belief is a commitment. Its as solid as a marriage. It is not merely cast aside so as to absorb new evidence UNLESS (and I stress this strongly) the new evidence is conclusive and proven beyond reasonable doubt. Which has not happened.
I am unmoved by the New Atheists and emotionally passionate secularism masquerading as an alternative to my belief(s).

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1857 by Stile, posted 01-25-2023 8:20 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1860 by Stile, posted 01-25-2023 10:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1875 by ringo, posted 01-27-2023 12:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1859 of 3694 (905378)
01-25-2023 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1855 by Stile
01-24-2023 3:46 PM


The Future IS Important Enough
Stile writes:
If your priority is to "have a good life" - then I understand why personal impact is so powerful, and I agree it can be a very good tool.
If your priority is to "know the truth about reality" - then I don't understand why you would use a tool that is known to be so useless in identification of the truth. It's clearly counter-productive.
Im not simply an emotional "fool" who ignores rationality completely. (at least I don't want to be)
I see a glimpse of the distant future of our species and our way of life. And its not a Bible prophecy. It is an educated guess into likely human behavior. Theodoric refers to me and those like me as RWNJ's. Right Wing Nut Jobs.
There is some truth to that, though I consider myself more intelligent than the average RWNJ. I also consider myself more moderate than I do extremist. So what do I see in the future?
The quality of life will remain steadfast due to the inner resolve and spirit of the American people. The younger generations will ditch materialism and focus on human values...sort of a secular communion. By and large, the youth are far less judgemental and set in their ways (and beliefs) than my generation is. They (global youth) are also far more likely to set their beliefs aside and seek new evidence. While old codgers such as myself yearn for the comfortable past that is slipping away from us daily, the youth are restless. They look at the world we all have left them as one major mess. Many of the important decisions as to the future course of human effort falls on them to determine and implement.
one more thing I just thought of.
The reason that I dont go along with the green new deal and the move to eliminate fossil fuels pronto is that unlike many of you, I dont have kids. Im thinking of myself and my own comfort while many of you are willing to suffer if it helps the future generation succeed.
Thus I concede that you all have good reasons for being adamant about change...even at the cost of you paying the bill. I guess I was(am) thinking only of my own personal comfort!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1855 by Stile, posted 01-24-2023 3:46 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1861 by Stile, posted 01-25-2023 10:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1862 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2023 10:24 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1863 by nwr, posted 01-25-2023 1:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1864 of 3694 (905426)
01-26-2023 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1863 by nwr
01-25-2023 1:08 PM


Re: The Future IS Important Enough
Im concerned about environmental issues too, but quite frankly do not want to suffer in my old age. I know it is selfish, by the way. I dont have kids to be selfless for. And im not doing it for a planet full of kids. Now might be the time for you to start praying for me. I need it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1863 by nwr, posted 01-25-2023 1:08 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1868 by nwr, posted 01-26-2023 7:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1865 of 3694 (905428)
01-26-2023 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1862 by Tangle
01-25-2023 10:24 AM


Phats Human Selfishness Showcased
Tangle writes:
Do you think that this is the Christian way Phat? WWJD?
For starters, He likely wont be too happy with me! Maybe in some of these arguments you guys are right. I dont fully know, anymore. At least not today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1862 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2023 10:24 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1870 of 3694 (905454)
01-27-2023 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1867 by PaulK
01-26-2023 2:21 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Smug self worship? Who does this?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1867 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 2:21 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1871 by PaulK, posted 01-27-2023 1:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1872 by Theodoric, posted 01-27-2023 7:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1878 of 3694 (905486)
01-28-2023 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1874 by ringo
01-27-2023 11:57 AM


The Bottom Line
Phat writes:
Gravity is an impersonal force. It makes no impression upon human behavior. Jesus, by contrast, is (according to scripture) The living truth.
ringo writes:
Jesus is impersonal to most. He only makes an impression on a small minority.
And this is scriptural.
Matthew 22:14 writes:
For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 22:1-46 teaches several great truths in context. Shall we discuss them?
ringo writes:
I, for one, constantly counsel you NOT to throw the book away.
And even now, as I am studying the nuances of the philosophy of critical thinking, I won't ever throw the book away nor limit the impact of the words themselves. It DOES remain to be seen how my online course will affect my thinking in this area.
ringo writes:
Thinking you have the final answer is a trap.
I have always believed that if you don't stand for something you will more readily fall for anything.
Phat writes:
I only claim to know one thing. He knows everything.
ringo writes:
Of course you couldn't possibly know that.
But unlike you and your conclusions as an ex-Christian, I believe it strongly.
I watched a good documentary from Frontline: Putin and the Presidents which did a good job of convincing me what has really been going on the past 35 years in East/West relations and how Biden has all along understood Putin better than any previous US President. Hence the war we are indirectly involved with.
This may not be World War III but it is an important war for the West to win. Global Democracy hangs in the balance.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1874 by ringo, posted 01-27-2023 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1879 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2023 10:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1880 by ringo, posted 01-28-2023 10:55 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1887 of 3694 (905499)
01-28-2023 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1880 by ringo
01-28-2023 10:55 AM


Re: The Bottom Line
ringo writes:
EVERY religion makes the same claim.
So? EVERY contestant on To Tell The Truth made the same claim. You have mentioned a few "contestants" before. Lets take Quatzechotal. Did he ever make the same claims as Jesus or His Father? Did Allah? Did the spaghetti monster? (IIRC, his noodliness didn't ever even speak! )
dwise1 writes:
And if you don't question anything, then you will fall for everything. Regardless of how blatantly and obviously false it is. Especially the con-man pitches.
To question is the answer.
Test everything. Hold onto that which is true.
Good advice. In context, I'm assuming that when you refer to the con men, you are not attacking scripture but are pointing to the apologists--the same group of goobers that ringo makes fun of!
ringo writes:
Discuss ANYTHING. I've been breaking my back for years trying to get you to discuss ANYTHING.
Its not as if you defend any of the "other" gods in your pantheon of hypocrisy. So I'll start...(in the interest of preserving your poor back! )
Matt 22:1-6 NKJV writes:
The Parable of the Wedding Feast
And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding, and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business.
Is it possible that the Father in question was GOD Himself and that the son was getting ready to marry the holy bride? Or is that too much of a stretch for you word-for-word literalists out there?
The next question-- Who was invited to the wedding? Evidently, ingrates who could care less who was marrying whom! In fact, they "made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. ". You will accuse me of reading into the text things that are not literally said, but I see these as people who make light of GOD, Jesus, and Holy Communion. They could care less about Jesus. (Am I sounding like another "apologist"? )
ringo writes:
You HAVE thrown the book away. You say you don't "limit" yourself to the book. You flat-out DENY much of what Jesus said in the book.
Im not denying anything that Jesus says in the parable. Unlike you, I see the Word as living and active. I see the Son as in eternal Communion with "whosoever believes". Whosoever takes the idea of a wedding seriously. Not some goober who listens to mythicism, throws the apologetics out the window, and sees the lessons of characters "limited to the book" as lesson enough.
To be fair, my class on philosophy and critical thinking reminds me of how some {ex-christian) critical thinkers approach such a text. No true Christian whom I know ever "makes light of it and goes their own way". In fact, YOU are the one who suggest that I read the book, though you scold me for daring to interpret it.
ringo writes:
I think most of us expect that nothing will dent that block of stone that you call a mind.
I once read that a wise man built his house upon a rock. A block of stone as it were. A rock of revelation. A rock of stability. The foolish guy built his house on sand. Shifting sand. A belief held one day and discarded(blown away) the next. An ex-Christian.
ringo writes:
Your fruits don't show it. You have no faith in God's ability to take care of you. You insist on relying on your own massive ego.
Hmmm. Well, all I can say is guilty as charged. I worry too much because I am getting old and my money is dwindling away. Can God save me from trouble? Yes. WILL He? I certainly can't manipulate Him. I can't make promises to Him. And I can't tell Him anything He doesn't already know. I could use my newfound critical thinking to throw Him away, limit Him to a character in a book, and do what I want. (But) I can't do that either if I am to remain true to myself.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1880 by ringo, posted 01-28-2023 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1903 by ringo, posted 01-30-2023 11:34 AM Phat has not replied

  
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