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Author | Topic: Absence of Evidence | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
I know that my statement is controversial. On a personal note, I have been accused (and rightly so) of "ignoring "everything" that Jesus said as well as setting a poor example of what a follower should be/do.
I have also been advised that if I really really DID believe I should logically be unafraid to "give everything up" in order to follow Jesus. My counter-argument is that this implies a double standard between believers and non-believers. My critics would ask why they should be expected to "give everything up" since they do not believe that Jesus exists or is who He says He is. To be fair, I can see the point of view of my critics. They are in essence asking me why I cling to a belief that I apparently don't even take seriously. They urge me to "just be honest with yourself" and join the peanut gallery of ex-believers. I could never do that. And yet I am unwilling to give everything up. In essence, I am between a rock and a hard place.
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Not really. If the dogma and tradition of what has been historically taught is examined, several assumptions stand out.
Its hard enough to convince you of the idea of GOD in the flesh (through human character) without trying to also sell you the apologetic defense regarding the introduction of evil into human behavior. You have a few scientific ways out of the belief.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Tangle writes: We can and we have. The problem with that kind of wording is that we don't have complete knowledge of anything. So if we wish, we can push it into the absurd. Everyone has seen the emotionally embarrasing specticle of "holy rollers" and tongue-talking. Everyone has watched well known Pastors, Priests, and Teachers falling and failing morally.
Not everyone has had the experiences that kept believers believing, however. Apart from the charge of willful ignorance and confirmation bias, there seems to be little explanation of why so few believers join the "ex-christian" peanut gallery. To be fair, however, this peanut gallery has a strong and loud voice.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
I think rather more persuasive is the argument that if such a character as Jesus actually did all the things he's supposed to have done - been executed by the Romans for it, risen from the dead and caused earthquakes etc etc - we should expect there to be reports of them from those whose writings we do have. Keep in mind that at that time, less than 10% of the overall population was even literate and of those even fewer who could write statements. Information was mixed with gossip and innuendo then as it is now. Those who could write were few and far between and had likely never met Jesus personally. And then we have the controversy over who actually wrote the Gospels, the motive(s) in writing them, and the whole issue of redactors. Which to me is indicative of a story worthy of a smear campaign. In my mind, it is a subjective suggestion that a spiritual war/conflict did in fact exist within human nature. There was a lot of interest in suppressing and changing the story.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
PK writes: According to the story, Peter denied Jesus 3 times. Was Peter being honest and decent? The problem is that I assume that believers should at least manage to be both honest and decent.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
What im saying is that the literate people of that time were likely non-believers and had no interest or sense of urgency in touching the story. The minority who were literate did not want the story to spread. Why you think i'm dishonest is unclear. All that I am doing is speculating. Last I checked, free speech still exists. Your ongoing disdain for apologetic's is noted. You would fit in well with the literate figures of that day. You would have little personal interest in furthering the story.
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Oh they reported it. My theory is that the powers in charge did not want it spread or reported.
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
I know. I was never schooled in the disciplines of evidenced responses and/or footnotes. Not that it is any excuse....
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
That post from 2005 was quite thorough. I can't simply wave away the bits of researched evidence which you and others have dug up.
And yet I would never let go of my beliefs. Which leaves me making stuff up. (Admittedly) Now do you see my moments of melancholy? Believers occasionally hit a wall and can get frustrated trying to get around it. The whole concept, proven to a substantial degree yet not beyond reasonable doubt, is that there is little solid evidence for Jesus Christ apart from those of us who cling to our beliefs and even try and improve them. What more is there? And yet I've never doubted God or Jesus. I DO question and allow myself to read the critics even though it shakes me up at times.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2
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I actually found a free course online.
quote:The course lasts 1 month. I start today. The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
I started my course. I am now in Module One.
quote:I'm determined to finish this course(at least the free version) even though I must admit it gives me mild anxiety. The lessons sound like the peanut gallery already took it! I'm putting my Book Nook reading aside for a month in order to focus on the course.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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