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Author Topic:   Absence of Evidence
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 39 (905403)
01-26-2023 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
01-15-2023 12:51 PM


The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
I know that my statement is controversial. On a personal note, I have been accused (and rightly so) of "ignoring "everything" that Jesus said as well as setting a poor example of what a follower should be/do.
I have also been advised that if I really really DID believe I should logically be unafraid to "give everything up" in order to follow Jesus. My counter-argument is that this implies a double standard between believers and non-believers. My critics would ask why they should be expected to "give everything up" since they do not believe that Jesus exists or is who He says He is.
To be fair, I can see the point of view of my critics. They are in essence asking me why I cling to a belief that I apparently don't even take seriously. They urge me to "just be honest with yourself" and join the peanut gallery of ex-believers.
I could never do that. And yet I am unwilling to give everything up. In essence, I am between a rock and a hard place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2023 12:51 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 7:20 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 39 (905405)
01-26-2023 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulK
01-26-2023 7:20 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Not really. If the dogma and tradition of what has been historically taught is examined, several assumptions stand out.
  • Believers are by nature inconsistent. Peter, who had allegedly seen Jesus in action, *still* denied Him three times. Were these tales simply madeup stories, I argue that there would not be so many people who were impacted by the story and through which the story, tradition, and dogma has carried down throughout History to this very day.
  • The evidence of the believers themselves does in fact score a point for my critics. The problem is that you assume that if Jesus were actually real, there would be absolutely no waffling among believers--both those who witnessed Him while alive and those (such as Saul of Tarsus) who claimed to witness a touch by the Holy Spirit. Apparently none of you buy the idea of a Spiritual War or conflict between personified good and personified evil.
    Its hard enough to convince you of the idea of GOD in the flesh (through human character) without trying to also sell you the apologetic defense regarding the introduction of evil into human behavior. You have a few scientific ways out of the belief.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 7:20 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 8:00 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 9 of 39 (905406)
    01-26-2023 7:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
    01-26-2023 4:04 AM


    Evidence Of The Absurd
    Tangle writes:
    The problem with that kind of wording is that we don't have complete knowledge of anything. So if we wish, we can push it into the absurd.
    We can and we have.
    Everyone has seen the emotionally embarrasing specticle of "holy rollers" and tongue-talking. Everyone has watched well known Pastors, Priests, and Teachers falling and failing morally.
    Not everyone has had the experiences that kept believers believing, however. Apart from the charge of willful ignorance and confirmation bias, there seems to be little explanation of why so few believers join the "ex-christian" peanut gallery.
    To be fair, however, this peanut gallery has a strong and loud voice.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 4:04 AM Tangle has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-27-2023 12:30 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 10 of 39 (905407)
    01-26-2023 7:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
    01-26-2023 4:04 AM


    Can I Get A Witness?
    I think rather more persuasive is the argument that if such a character as Jesus actually did all the things he's supposed to have done - been executed by the Romans for it, risen from the dead and caused earthquakes etc etc - we should expect there to be reports of them from those whose writings we do have.
    Keep in mind that at that time, less than 10% of the overall population was even literate and of those even fewer who could write statements. Information was mixed with gossip and innuendo then as it is now. Those who could write were few and far between and had likely never met Jesus personally.
    And then we have the controversy over who actually wrote the Gospels, the motive(s) in writing them, and the whole issue of redactors.
    Which to me is indicative of a story worthy of a smear campaign. In my mind, it is a subjective suggestion that a spiritual war/conflict did in fact exist within human nature. There was a lot of interest in suppressing and changing the story.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 4:04 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 7:56 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 16 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 10:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 13 of 39 (905412)
    01-26-2023 8:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
    01-26-2023 8:00 AM


    Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
    PK writes:
    The problem is that I assume that believers should at least manage to be both honest and decent.
    According to the story, Peter denied Jesus 3 times. Was Peter being honest and decent?

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 8:00 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 9:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 21 of 39 (905422)
    01-26-2023 11:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
    01-26-2023 10:45 AM


    Re: Can I Get A Witness?
    What im saying is that the literate people of that time were likely non-believers and had no interest or sense of urgency in touching the story. The minority who were literate did not want the story to spread. Why you think i'm dishonest is unclear. All that I am doing is speculating. Last I checked, free speech still exists. Your ongoing disdain for apologetic's is noted. You would fit in well with the literate figures of that day. You would have little personal interest in furthering the story.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 10:45 AM Theodoric has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 22 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 11:58 AM Phat has replied
     Message 24 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 12:11 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 23 of 39 (905425)
    01-26-2023 11:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by PaulK
    01-26-2023 11:58 AM


    Re: Can I Get A Witness?
    Oh they reported it. My theory is that the powers in charge did not want it spread or reported.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 11:58 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 12:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 26 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 12:57 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 27 of 39 (905438)
    01-26-2023 2:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Theodoric
    01-26-2023 12:57 PM


    Re: Can I Get A Witness?
    I know. I was never schooled in the disciplines of evidenced responses and/or footnotes. Not that it is any excuse....

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 12:57 PM Theodoric has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 3:15 PM Phat has replied
     Message 31 by Stile, posted 01-27-2023 9:21 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 28 of 39 (905439)
    01-26-2023 2:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
    01-26-2023 10:45 AM


    Re: Can I Get A Witness?
    Theodoric writes:
    Writers who could/should have mentioned Jesus
    Message 8
    That post from 2005 was quite thorough. I can't simply wave away the bits of researched evidence which you and others have dug up.
    And yet I would never let go of my beliefs.
    Which leaves me making stuff up. (Admittedly)
    Now do you see my moments of melancholy? Believers occasionally hit a wall and can get frustrated trying to get around it.
    The whole concept, proven to a substantial degree yet not beyond reasonable doubt, is that there is little solid evidence for Jesus Christ apart from those of us who cling to our beliefs and even try and improve them. What more is there?
    And yet I've never doubted God or Jesus. I DO question and allow myself to read the critics even though it shakes me up at times.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 10:45 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 4:13 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (5)
    Message 32 of 39 (905459)
    01-27-2023 9:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
    01-26-2023 3:15 PM


    Re: Can I Get A Witness?
    I actually found a free course online.
    quote:
    Hello and welcome to META101x - a free online introductory course about Philosophical and Critical Thinking.
    Thinking well is important. This course is a celebration and exploration of our ability to think and hence to philosophize. We look at how thinking in certain ways allows us to frame and approach some of the biggest questions that can be asked - questions about how we can know about the world and ourselves, how we can understand identity and change, and even what it means to be thinking in the first place.
    The course lasts 1 month. I start today.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 3:15 PM Tangle has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 33 by Taq, posted 01-27-2023 11:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 36 of 39 (905473)
    01-27-2023 3:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
    01-27-2023 12:30 PM


    Getting Back On Topic
    I started my course. I am now in Module One.
    quote:
    MODULE 1: What part of 'know' don't you understand?
    The search for knowledge is one of the defining characteristics of human beings. Here philosophers and scientists talk about the difference between belief and knowledge and the importance of doubt in the process of creating new knowledge.
    I'm determined to finish this course(at least the free version) even though I must admit it gives me mild anxiety. The lessons sound like the peanut gallery already took it!
    I'm putting my Book Nook reading aside for a month in order to focus on the course.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-27-2023 12:30 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 37 by Taq, posted 01-27-2023 4:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 38 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2023 4:30 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 39 by Adminnemooseus, posted 01-28-2023 3:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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