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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Thanks for the recommendation. I am now finished the book and found it tremendously interesting. I'm glad you found it useful.
I think in many ways Bart has thrown out the baby with the bathwater. I don't see that. But I'm not surprised that we disagree there.
Tony did say something that I particularly relate to. He said on page 102: quote: Yes, that's a viewpoint shared by many liberal Christians.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
For me resurrection is what defines Christianity. I can agree with that. But the resurrection seems to only exist in story telling. There is no actual supportive evidence.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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There is the New Testament and the early church fatyhers. The gospels provide only very weak evidence of an empty tomb, and no evidence at all of a resurrection. Yes, there is evidence that members of the early church believed the resurrection. There is also evidence that many Republicans believe that Trump won the 2022 presidential election. Beliefs about are not evidence.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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It [the resurrection] is also believed by Paul who had considerable close contact with the eyewitnesses as well as a little later on Papias. Paul had never met Jesus. The consensus view appears to be that Paul believed only in a spiritual resurrection, not a physical resurrection.
No, but there has to be a reason for their belief. They wanted it to be true, so they believed it.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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AS we can see from that quote that is not the case. I'm not seeing that as at all relevant.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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I think that GDR respects you and the peanut gallery enough that he wants to form a consensus with you rather than fight you. I'm not fighting GDR. I don't think Percy is fighting him either, although he is more critical. I just don't think GDR is making a lot of sense in this topic. But it's his life, and his beliefs so it's not up to me to object.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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In many ways I suggest in looking at something like the resurrection of Jesus that I as a theist can look at it more objectively than an atheists can. I don't think that's correct.
As an atheist has decided that there is no cosmic intelligence involved in our existence then there can't be any reason to believe it to be historical. You may be reading too much into the word "atheist". I usually prefer to say that I am agnostic, so as to avoid that misunderstanding. I have not decided that there was no cosmic intelligence involved. The most I can say, is that I do not see any evidence of a cosmic intelligence. But I readily admit that I cannot answer the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?"
However, I as a theist can accept that it could possibly be historical and the look for more material to form a conclusion. That's what I did back when I was still a Christian and still regularly attending church. The conclusion that I reached was that I came to doubt the resurrection, but I did not immediately leave Christianity at that time.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
I was an agnostic for years but I never was atheistic. I just hadn't formed an opinion. Some would say that you were actually an atheist. You did not believe in God. Atheism can be taken to just mean the lack of any belief in God.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Once again insult and put down masquerading as an argument. I don't think that's fair. As I see it, Percy has been giving honest responses to the points that you raise. And I had thought that was what you wanted. Yes, some of the responses have not been to your liking. Welcome to the world of debating. And, by the way, this has given you some good practice at responding to tough debating points.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Perhaps you are worried that GDR might persuade Percy to become more of a Theist. Why would anybody worry about that?
That would certainly be worrisome if any of the peanut gallery defected from your global marxist oligarchy. There isn't any "global marxist oligarchy".Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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We are both privileged(by global standards) Agreed.
We both have poorer cousins within our family. Again, I can agree.
The main difference is that you are burning down the very house you live in due to your politics. This is just wrong. It is the conservatives, such as you, who are burning down the house.
You seek to vanquish the entire support system that made America great and that allowed you and I to go to school and get the education we needed. This is backwards. The conservatives, such as you, are attacking the support system. Education is now too expensive for many Americans, as a result of conservative politics. Conservatives are continuing to attack social security and medicare.
Perhaps another difference between us is that I feel entitled to some privilege because my Dad worked hard to pave the way. My parents supported me as a child and through my education. I do not expect any entitlement to privilege beyond that. I happen to believe in the American principle that all men are created equal -- and that's something that you seem to reject.
You are a proudly educated elitist. You are the elitist around here. Your expectation of entitlement to privilege is part of your elitism.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
The reason that I dont go along with the green new deal and the move to eliminate fossil fuels pronto is that unlike many of you, I dont have kids. Im thinking of myself and my own comfort while many of you are willing to suffer if it helps the future generation succeed. My children and grandchildren will have to look after themselves. They are beyond the age where what I do has much effect on their lives. However, I benefited because of people who came before me. I have a moral obligation to pay it forward. That's why I am concerned about environment issues.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Now might be the time for you to start praying for me. Prayer doesn't do anything, as far as I can tell.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Atheism is a disbelief. That seems too strong for "I don't give a damn."
However, when is disbelief a belief? Never.
Do you believe that we live in a materialistic world. I believe that we live in a world. I have no idea what (if anything) "materialistic" adds to that. It's a phrase that Christians like to toss out. To me, people who claim to be Christians look pretty materialistic in the way that they live.
Do you believe that our existence is strictly the result of natural causes with no intelligent input? As best I can tell, all biological organisms have some small amount of intelligence.
What do you subjectively believe? I subjectively believe that I have eaten enough dinner for now. And I subjectively believe that subjective beliefs are not very important.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
....or in other words only matter matters. And yet it is unclear what we mean by "matter".Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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