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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1693 of 3694 (904713)
01-05-2023 7:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 1692 by GDR
01-05-2023 5:38 PM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes: That is certainly better than what I usually get called. Thank you. Don't get carried away, sanity is a pretty low bar.
I would add though that I find Phat open to new views or to changing existing ones. Then you blow it. Phat is neither open to new views, nor has he ever changed any. He's been on this forum for 20 years exposing his soul, show me what views he's changed. It's that evidence thing again.
Well the obvious question is necessary for what.
Necessary for you. You say that it's core to your belief. So?
It seems that most theists align themselves with some religion or other.
That's the definition of a theist I think.
I am a Christian and yes I believe in the resurrection of Jesus. With that belief I am obviously very interested in Jesus in order to understand the nature of God and what that means for my life. But you also say that there's only one god and people worship him in their own way regardless of religious brand - or something like that, so how are you dealing with those billions that don't believe what you believe?. I have a problem squaring that with what Jesus says in the bible and don't even think about the OT and false gods etc.
Religion has largely been about getting on the right side of God so that He will be with us in defeating our enemies, (just read the OT) or often more recently how we gat ourselves into a good situation in the next life. In Jesus I came to understand that The God He called Father is loving, forgiving, merciful and just. The call on our life then is to emulate that. Yeh, we know that's what you've come to believe. The issue is why anybody else should take the same reading? Pretty much every Christian denomination never has and still doesn't. "I am the way, the truth and the list" etc.
However, that is not to say that non-Christians can't live guided by those same principles as well.
That's damn decent of you to say so! The rest of the world is relieved and not at all patronised!
I think that the big problem in western culture is that too many people, both Christian and non-Christian alike see Christianity as focused on being in a good situation in the next life. Just a thought, but maybe that's because it's what it's taught for 2,000 years and still does?
I don't see that in the Gospels Jesus certainly acknowledges that there is a life to come. With that in mind I suggest that many of the Biblical passages that talk about living in fire etc is more about this life than the next. It wouldn't take long to quote chapter and verse on why you're dead wrong, But I'm more interested in why you think you're right and all Christian history is wrong. Fyi, that's what the nut jobs do.
I think we can all see people throughout history who have quite happily used other s badly in order to benefit themselves. It seems to me that they usually wind up old and grumpy. Really? Evidence?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1692 by GDR, posted 01-05-2023 5:38 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1696 by GDR, posted 01-07-2023 5:39 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1699 of 3694 (904809)
01-08-2023 6:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 1696 by GDR
01-07-2023 5:39 PM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes: Sure, I think it is core to my Christian faith. You seem to hold the view that religion is simply about doing well in the next life. For me it's a road map for this life. I'll let God worry about what comes next and trust in His perfect justice. I'm confident that perfect judgement is concerned with our hearts and not our theology. I think you believe that there is some kind of afterlife/heaven don’t you? That’s a fairly standard Christian belief. And although you say that you leave the procedure for getting there to god, I think you believe that in order to get there you need to live a decent life here on earth? You also say, I think, that it’s not necessary to be a Christian and believe and do all the things Christians do and believe in order to get there? So I’m trying to understand why you need the religion at all? We can all live to the golden rule without all the hocus pocus and worship etc. It seems to me that in your personal belief system the religious element is irrelevant except as a kind of hobby.
Probably true but it should not be the primary message.
But it is, isn’t it? What you want it to be is not the message that has been preached for thousands of years. You’re forming your own branch of liberal Anglicanism. Well ok, you’re not the first to do this, there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations, you all take what suits you from the believe system, but maybe you can understand our confusion and frustration.
How about the "spiritual but not religious groups". There are lots of theists that don't adhere to any religion.
They aren’t theists, they’re people abandoning formal religion and instead taking up a general wuzzy idea that there’s something greater than the self. Theists believe in a religious god that intervenes in the universe.
The social Gospel has always been a part of the Christian faith. I do think that we can look to Jesus as the "way" we should live; I do believe that Jesus displays the "truth" about God and I do believe that following Jesus give us "life" as God intended it. I don't disagree that many have taken that to be about the next life, but I contend that is taking it beyond what was intended. The rest of that verse is “No one can come to the father except though me” That’s interpreted as following Jesus gets you eternal life. The other side of that is that not following Jesus does not. Again it’s pretty damn clear.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1696 by GDR, posted 01-07-2023 5:39 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1700 by Phat, posted 01-08-2023 9:38 AM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 1712 by GDR, posted 01-09-2023 2:29 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1701 of 3694 (904815)
01-08-2023 9:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 1700 by Phat
01-08-2023 9:38 AM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Phat writes: the most definite reason is Jesus Himself. How is that a reason?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1700 by Phat, posted 01-08-2023 9:38 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1702 by Phat, posted 01-08-2023 9:50 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1704 of 3694 (904819)
01-08-2023 10:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 1702 by Phat
01-08-2023 9:50 AM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Phat writes: Im guessing that when you took communion you thought it was only a cracker. Brits call them wafers. But no, when I took communion I thought it was the body of Christ because that's what I'd been told ever since I could speak. I don't think it made much sense to me even then but I thought it was important. But of course now I know it to be nonsense, just like you do. Only Catholics believe it to be the actual body of Christ. Crazy people. But GDR tells me that anyone that leads a good life will be ok in the next so why bother with the crackers/wafers?
By the way, when are we gonna go fishing? I'll be chest deep in the Rio Grande, Argentina in February, there's a spare rod if you want it?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1702 by Phat, posted 01-08-2023 9:50 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1844 by Dredge, posted 01-23-2023 10:27 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1715 of 3694 (904877)
01-09-2023 4:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 1712 by GDR
01-09-2023 2:29 PM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes: I don't have answers to all this but believe and trust in a deity that ultimately will exercise perfect judgement in the life to come. I would add, once again, that we should focus on what we can do to make this world a better place in this life and deal with the next one when it comes along. Yes, but what's that got to do with religion? Or Christianity specifically? Doing the right things for the right reasons must include not doing it just to get into an afterlife, so why do we (you) need religions and prayer and worship and churches and bells and all the rest of the pantomime? Just being a decent person must be good enough - by your own admission.
Sure but you can maybe understand my frustration when people assume what they think I believe as a Christian. In actuality I'm much more in line with the theology coming out of your country than I am with N. American theology. That's why I said you believe in your own form of liberal Anglicanism - it's basically the predominant form here - transitioning away into atheism and fuzzy forms of 'spirituality'. The only message of the bible that actually makes any sense is do as you would be done by. No religion necessary.
I'm going to let CS Lewis answer that.
I'm not even going to read that, just tell me what you think. Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1712 by GDR, posted 01-09-2023 2:29 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1724 by GDR, posted 01-10-2023 3:41 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1726 of 3694 (904896)
01-10-2023 4:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 1724 by GDR
01-10-2023 3:41 PM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes: It isn't about being a decent person. It is about being a loving person and specifically one who is prepared to love sacrificially. Oh right. Now we're into martyrdom. How far down this redemption complex do we need to go?
The thing about Christianity is for one thing it should cause one to realize that the ability to love is a gift from God and it isn't just because you're a great guy. It helps keep you humble. Also it makes one grateful for the gift of life itself. Also through that knowledge and prayer it provides a path to being a more loving, humble, kinder and forgiving person than you would have been otherwise. And now the pious waffle. Yes you believe all this stuff, fine, so much we know, it's kind of revolting but I'll get over it. What I'm trying to get at is why all this ingratiation is necessary? You tell us that people do not need to do it nor even be a Christian in order to satisfy God's criteria. It seems to me that your martyrdom cult is more than a little self-serving.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1724 by GDR, posted 01-10-2023 3:41 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1738 by GDR, posted 01-13-2023 5:55 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1739 of 3694 (904995)
01-13-2023 6:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 1738 by GDR
01-13-2023 5:55 PM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes: Then you would consider buying a homeless person a meal martyrdom. Is sending aid to help someone in an impoverished nation martyrdom; is visiting a sick person martyrdom; is cheerfully brightening up the day for a check-out person at the grocery store martyrdom; and is working to help refugees in a camp to immigrate, and then helping support them martyrdom? I'd consider doing those day-to-day things as simply being human and having consideration for others. What has smiling at a check out person got to do with "sacrificial love"? There's something deeply sickening about those words. Something really narcissistic.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1738 by GDR, posted 01-13-2023 5:55 PM | | GDR has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1757 of 3694 (905032)
01-14-2023 7:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 1752 by GDR
01-14-2023 5:38 PM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes: There are individuals who would look down on the sales clerk as a lessor being and as someone simply waiting on them. And those people are arseholes.
It is about not being prideful and not treating others as inferior beings. Which is called being a normal, decent, human being
It is anything but narcissistic. Treating other people decently is the bloody baseline GDR. There's absolutely nothing remarkable or even vaguely 'sacrificial' about it. You think there's something self-sacrificial about just being nice to people? Something special? We behave decently because that's just the right thing to do and to do otherwise is abnormal. You're trying to turn something normal and human into something special to you and your faith. It nauseates me because it's so self-engrossed. It's the opposite of humble. Are you going to answer my question?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1752 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 5:38 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1761 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:24 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1770 of 3694 (905052)
01-15-2023 10:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 1761 by GDR
01-14-2023 7:24 PM
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Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes: I would agree treating others decently is a base line. Why isn't the base line the evolutionary base line of the survival of the fittest? This has been explained to you several times in this thread and in many others, now you're just trying to change the subject. If you really need it answering again, I will, but after you've answered my question.
That idea though has been more often than not ignored. Look at slavery for example, which was considered normal. Again, you're trying to change the subject and given that slavery is biblical I really wouldn't go there.
Also it is hardly unique to the Christian faith as I have said repeatedly, but you'll still carry on making that accusation. Nothing is unique to the Christian faith, everything is a rip-off of other belief systems with a changed emphasise. But you're still not answering my question. Why is it necessary for you to perform all the rituals and rites of a formal Christian belief system when you actually believe that even being a Christian is not required to meet Jesus' criterion.? Edited by Tangle, .
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1761 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:24 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1862 of 3694 (905382)
01-25-2023 10:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 1859 by Phat
01-25-2023 9:14 AM
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Re: The Future IS Important Enough
Phat writes: The reason that I dont go along with the green new deal and the move to eliminate fossil fuels pronto is that unlike many of you, I dont have kids. Im thinking of myself and my own comfort while many of you are willing to suffer if it helps the future generation succeed. Do you think that this is the Christian way Phat? WWJD?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1859 by Phat, posted 01-25-2023 9:14 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1865 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 12:13 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1886 of 3694 (905498)
01-28-2023 3:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 1883 by GDR
01-28-2023 2:43 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
please, please, please, atheism is NOT a belief. What is it with you guys, can't you take anything in? We've been saying this for 20 years. ffs.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1883 by GDR, posted 01-28-2023 2:43 PM | | GDR has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1890 of 3694 (905503)
01-28-2023 3:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 1889 by Phat
01-28-2023 3:24 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
And that's called changing the subject.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1889 by Phat, posted 01-28-2023 3:24 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1892 of 3694 (905505)
01-28-2023 6:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 1891 by GDR
01-28-2023 5:13 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: OK. Atheism is a disbelief. Jesus H Christ. It's not a disbelief. It's a nothing. Calling it a disbelief presupposes that there's something there not to believe in. But there's just nothing. Neither you nor I disbelieve in Father Christmas do we? We know that there's nothing to either believe or disbelieve. We know it's a fiction, a story told to children.
However, when is disbelief a belief?
Fucking never!
Do you believe that we live in a materialistic world. What has consumerism have to do with anything?
Do you believe that our existence is strictly the result of natural causes with no intelligent input? To coin a phrase oh, good grief. I have no idea. It's utterly irrelevant.That question has no meaning for me - it's a Christian construct.What I know is that everything we've ever discovered about our world has no evidence of magical intervention.
If you were an agnostic you could answer that the answer is unknowable, which is true but that does not mean that we can't have our own subjective beliefs onw way or the other. People have all sorts of fuckwitted beliefs. The fact that I don't share them does not mean that I have an equal and opposite fuckwitted belief in something else. You know, like you don't believe in Vishnu? It's not like you've spent any time not believing in Vishnu is it? Vishnu is just not on the radar. You don't even know that you're supposed to believe in Vishnu. It's an utter irrelevance.
What do you subjectively believe?
Can you get it into your skull that just because you believe something daft doesn't mean that those that don't believe what you believe have some sort of substitute belief? Quit trying to make an equivalence, there is none. You know the expression "If not believing in god is a belief, then not stamp collecting is a hobby?" Nearest I can get. If you still don't get it, just believe me, you're good at that.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1891 by GDR, posted 01-28-2023 5:13 PM | | GDR has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1915 of 3694 (905584)
01-31-2023 3:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 1905 by GDR
01-30-2023 7:25 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: You have said previously that you after attending church made a decision to reject the Christian faith. What a bizarre question. First off I was born into a Catholic family, went to Catholic schools and went to Catholic mass every Sunday from birth to early teens. That's a very, very thorough brain washing. I believed the entire thing, didn't question it because I didn't know any better. The only other views I heard was the divisions between protestant and catholic beliefs. (Which of course was extremely violent in some parts of the UK, but for us kids it just meant throwing stones at each other if we every met.) I think I started seeing through the whole thing at puberty and finally gave it up at about 14/15. I realised that, just like Father Christmas and the tooth fairy, it was just what adults had made up to make children and gullible people feel better about things. I didn't “reject the Christian faith” - again you're using language that has implicit assumptions - I just realised it was bollocks so stopped thinking about it. I just seemed utterly ridiculous.
I assume that you believed that the decision that you made to reject Christianity was based on your rejection of Christian doctrine. Again, you don't get it because you can't imagine what a non-belief is. I simply realised that the entire religious edifice was make-believe fantasy and just forgot all about it and got on with life. Not just Catholicism or Christianity but all the thousands of invented religions - all made up nonsense. You're making atheism it into a ‘thing’. It's not. It's a nothing. It shouldn't even have a word to describe it because it doesn't exist. It's identical to not “rejecting” elves and goblins. I don't reject them! They're not there to reject. And I don't believe in leprechauns instead.
Do you believe that you reached the correct conclusion? What kind of dumb question is that? Apart from it not being a decision or conclusion, more like a realisation, haven't you noticed what I've been saying here for the last god knows how many years? Look, if you can't understand this, please just accept what we say about it, take it in, stop making your own assertions of what we must believe, we don't.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1905 by GDR, posted 01-30-2023 7:25 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1916 of 3694 (905585)
01-31-2023 5:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 1906 by GDR
01-30-2023 7:34 PM
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Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes: OK, I get it I suppose. You don't believe in anything. I don't have a belief in god(s). That's it. It doesn't imply anything else about me.
The supernatural might exist and it might not, but you essentially don't think it does.. If you want to understand what I think about this, you need to separate out in your head deism and theism. For you they're the same, you believe in your religion and therefore a god. I think religion - all religion - is daft, often dangerous and always a waste of resource, both human and capital. Whether a non-interventionist god exists or not I can't possibly know because it, by definition, can have no influence on me or anything else. I can know nothing about it. It's therefore as irrelevant to me as a quark - even though quarks actually exist.
There is no evidence for you to come to a conclusion, so essentially you get on with life without really thinking about it. This does though kinda beg the question of why get involved in this discussion as you don't really have a point you want to make. Of course I have a point I want to make! Of course I (now) think about it! Religion is polluting everything around me. It's there in our schools, in our laws, in the churches, in finance, in wars, in terrorism and in the media. It's corrupting everything. What's more, it's embarrassing to me watching grown-ups behaving like idiots, praying to non-existent gods to help them score a goal or blaming demons for their bad luck. It's not like a quark, I can't ignore what's in my face.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1906 by GDR, posted 01-30-2023 7:34 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1992 by GDR, posted 02-03-2023 7:44 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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