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Member (Idle past 5930 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Seeing as how this is a Faith & Belief topic, evolution vs creationism, though fair game, takes us off on a rabbit trail. candle, knock it off.
Let me help you steer back on course, or, if you prefer, start a new topic. candle2 writes: The interpretation that should be discussed is the idea of a Higher power, cosmic intelligence, or topic-specifically a Triune God. Evolutionists do not have evidence that creationistsdon't have. Everyone has access to the same evidence. The interpretation is different. The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes:
And with you it gets even more unnecessarily complex. To wit:
If we can't come to a common understanding of how many gods there are, how can we come to a common understanding of how many aspects one god has?ringo writes: In another thread you even brought up Quatzechotal, for crying out loud! I will try and show you why you run from the truth and are dishonest with yourself.
My main focus in this thread has been, why three? Why not more? Why not less? Message 95Phat writes: Creating the possibility of evil does not make the Creator evil.Choosing which attributes you wish to emulate was only made possible by virtue of the fact that the Creator did not make you only able to behave in a singular and limited fashion. Had the Creator made it so that you were destined to only act out a limited trait, that limitation imposed on you would make you doomed and Him evil. On the other hand, had the Creator made it so that you would never experience evil, He may well have done you a disservice by limiting the scope of your experience. You can call Him evil if you like, and I will always disagree with you. I recall this argument. You stubbornly clung to the fact that if the Creator allowed the "hole to be dug" by which people could fall into it, He was in fact evil.
ringo writes: Digging a hole for people to fall into is evil. So my basic belief, shared by Dr.Peter Kreeft, is that God initially only created the possibility of evil. To wit:
Strobel, Case For Faith writes: "Then God is the creator of evil". Dr.Kreeft, in The Case For Faith interview writes:
Some would agree, others wouldnt. Which only shows that evil is actualized in our world today and threatens to consume us.
"No, he created the possibility of evil; people actualized that possibility. The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet there was no potentiality for sin, because our freedom includes the possibility of sin(or rebellion) within its own meaning. It's a self-contradiction--a meaningless nothing--to have a world where there's real choice while at the same time no possibility of choosing evil. To ask why God didnt create such a world is like asking why God didnt create colorless color or round squares. ring, addressing NoNukes writes: You mouth off to God more than I do...even more than Job did! Not bad for a guy who believes there is no (One) God. ! You will likely say that you were talking to NoNukes and not God, but I would come back with "Whatever you do to the least of these you do to Me". Now I expect you to again go off on me that I am the one who does not respect the "Dusty Old Book" and that I don't listen to Jesus and I am often hateful and disrespective of the poor...and others. I was responding to Phat's Message 95which seems to suggest that God created "the possibility of evil" to broaden our range of experiences. My response was that He was doing us no favour. I wont defend my own "goodness" or "badness". In fact I will even say guilty as charged. Now what? ringo writes: Why not think about it for once? You claim that its all God fault according to Isaiah 45:7. In fact, here are several translations:
Message 104 Why couldn't God avoid creating evil by creating a world that didn't evolve? NIV writes:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.NKJV writes:
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’Amplified Bible writes:
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.Literal Standard Version writes: Forming light, and creating darkness, | Making peace, and creating calamity, | I [am] YHWH, doing all these things. Interesting, to say the least. Note how in Job, God takes full responsibility for all that Job has endured and nobody blames Satan. Once Job actually finds out who God is, he ceased being agitated and inquisitive. He had found God...the One who is, Was, and will forever be. You, on the other hand, have mentioned being Satans defense attorney! Note your response to me in a recent thread:
Phat writes:
You picked knowledge(evidence) over life(Jesus)ringo writes: I maintain that I AM alive, so choosing evidence has not been a problem. The problem with the tree of knowledge is that people became more aware of themselves and less aware of God. Had they chosen the other tree they could have had Jesus but instead they chose the tree of self actualization. And I like how you capitalize I AM. Did the snake teach you that? The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yes, I believe so. God is confidant and secure there. He does not fear disagreement. I doubt whethere there is any, however. Who would even want to complain?
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I was unaware that nobody has freedom *here*.
You are free to throw away the bells and smells of your youth. Evidently you never learned any more than that. You were forced to study art while never meeting the artist.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Our freedom caused the actualization of hypothetical evil. God foreknew (in the parable) that humans would choose self actualization before they chose Jesus(Tree of Life) There will be no such battle in Heaven. The score is being settled here in this realm. Granted this is my own apologetic interpretation...im no Biblical scholar (Thank God!)
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Taq writes: Satan got booted out of there for advocating the same thing. I would imagine that anyone who actually makes it to Heaven would be technically capable of but thoroughly unlikely to do or spread evil in Heaven. If they did, like the fallen angels before them they would get booted. So people can't choose to do evil in heaven?The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Genesis. The tree(s). The snake. The nakedness. Surely you know of this parable.
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
tangle writes: First off, technically none of us know. But we can speculate. What I asked you was "Is there freedom in heaven Phat?" ie freedom to do evil in heaven. Is there? To begin with, what is the definition of evil? Second, what is the definition (and social and spiritual parameters) of such a place? Third, Who is in charge?The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
if evil doesn't exist there, why can it not exist here? Because we have willfully allowed it. God respects our free will so much that He won't simply take the evil away from us. We allowed it in. We must push it out. Of course, we are also free enough to choose to ask Him to help. He won't do it all, however.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Are you seriously asking that question? For the same reason that we can't smoke pot at grandma's house.
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You didn't get the analogy. When in the "house" of someone whom you know and respect, you will temper your own evil/willful/rebellious tendencies. In other words, if you even made the grade to be accepted in Heaven, you would have had to have met the Landlord. Building on that relationship, you would not be/do evil in Heaven. This does not mean that you couldnt. (Though there might be another war and you may find yourself cast down to some planet somewhere! )
The apologetics that I have adapted says that God initially allowed free will in Heaven, Lucifer chose it (perhaps he only chose "completeness" in order to be more like God), and yet the fallen cherub couldn't handle the responsibility. Thus, war broke out in Heaven and Lucifer was cast down...(booted out) Your beloved snake (who told the truth! ) was a metaphor for the truth that we can all be complete(like God) won out in human imagination and evolution. Had the Woman reached for the tree of life (I AM the vine...)She would have found God's character and guidance. Instead, they chose the pesky tree of autonomy and self-actualization, and here we all are. The man, for his part, should have listened to God and not the woman, but he had not yet tasted of life(In Christ) yet either. All that is to say that God foreknew what we were likely to do. Jesus is and was around since the beginning (represented as the Tree of Life) and yet God knew we would take a detour before being able to eat of that tree. Some of you evidenced based skeptics think you have reality all figured out and are STILL in the detour! The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
At least you cant readily google a rebuttal to mine. You have to actually make up your own response.
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Taq writes: Yes and no. (Im gonna have to dance a bit in order to make my apologetic fit your question! ) God was the landlord of the Garden of Eden and of the Earth, is he not? Lets go to scrip: Psalms 24:1 writes: Most commentaries suggest that though the earth was the Lords, the world was/is of Satan. ESV-The earth is the LORD’s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein, for he has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the rivers.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If there is a reason not to commit evil, then it would apply equally to our time on Earth as it does in our time in Heaven. I disagree. I look at it this way. If a Landlord rents out apartments in an apartment house that he happens to own, he cannot legally have a say as to what specific behaviors his tenants can do. IF, however, we are talking about the Landlords's personal home, he darn well can enforce any and every type of behavior within that environment. The earth is more like a rental property. Heaven is more like a personal and private residence.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I would think not. Heaven lacks the environment of decay and entropy that earth has. And of course I'm not only speculating but making up what I believe about Heaven. There is no data.
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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