Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 68 (9102 total)
6 online now:
dwise1, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK, Phat, Tangle (5 members, 1 visitor)
Newest Member: sensei
Post Volume: Total: 904,721 Year: 1,602/14,231 Month: 526/1,076 Week: 259/376 Day: 1/64 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 166 of 178 (904692)
01-05-2023 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
01-05-2023 11:55 AM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Yup done here. As you are incapable of having a logical, adult conversation I am done. I may comment on your utter stupidity from the sidelines.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 11:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 167 of 178 (904693)
01-05-2023 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
01-05-2023 11:55 AM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Phat writes:
I defend private property rights. Even the Bible tells us to
quote:
Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Your Bible quote says nothing about private property rights.
Phat writes:
Government should never mandate compulsory giving beyond reasonable taxation.
Nobody has ever suggested that but you. Where are you getting this crap?
Phat writes:
And if the debt becomes unsustainable, we all should simply agree to wipe the slate clean...
Who is going to be agreeing?
Phat writes:
... rather than be under bondage to some socialist "humanitarian" bill.
Once again, money that is spend on humanitarian causes is not money thrown down the drain. All money that CIRCULATES in the economy is good for the economy.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 11:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 1:58 PM ringo has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9323
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 168 of 178 (904694)
01-05-2023 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
01-05-2023 11:55 AM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Phat writes:
Government should never mandate compulsory giving beyond reasonable taxation.
Who gets to decide what reasonable taxation is?
And if the debt becomes unsustainable, we all should simply agree to wipe the slate clean rather than be under bondage to some socialist "humanitarian" bill.
What in the world are you talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 11:55 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 1:37 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3773
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 169 of 178 (904695)
01-05-2023 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
01-05-2023 11:55 AM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Phat writes:
Theo writes:
The government has had debt since before it was officially formed. Our economy is big enough to handle the debt load.
Then why is the debt growing exponentially? Heck, we cant even handle the deficeit! You do know the difference,don't you?
You make "exponential growth" sound like something that is extra dangerous or something. Exponential growth is the normal way to describe increases in all financial systems.
Do you understand that the national debt is in the form of bonds that are sold by the government and bought by investors who want a guaranteed return when they mature after a specified period of time.
The debt is not an unpaid, overdue bill that debtors are clambering for immediate payment, rather it is bonds that are owned by investors and paid off when they mature after 10, or 20, or 30 years. In the U.S., the Congress passes bills each year to authorize payments to service the bonds that mature that year.
The only time in recent years that we came close to defaulting on paying off those matured bonds were when REPUBLICANS voted against paying the bills for debts that were spent 10, 20, or 30 years in the past. Do you understand that?
Phat writes:
2 Cor 9:6-8 writes:
6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Government should never mandate compulsory giving beyond reasonable taxation. And if the debt becomes unsustainable, we all should simply agree to wipe the slate clean rather than be under bondage to some socialist "humanitarian" bill.
Why are you equating religious tithing with taxes paid to the government to provide services to all the citizens? You clearly don't think YOU or the wealthy should pay your fair shares for the benefits you receive by living in a civilized country.
I have yet to see you complaining about the trillions of dollars that were added to the debt just to give the 1% a tax cut. This was direct spending by the Trump administration that ONLY BENEFITTED TH ULTRA WEALTHY AND NO ONE ELSE! Everyone else has to pay the rich people just for being fucking rich!!!!
You Fucking Idiot!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 11:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 2:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 170 of 178 (904697)
01-05-2023 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Taq
01-05-2023 12:55 PM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Phat writes:
And if the debt becomes unsustainable, we all should simply agree to wipe the slate clean rather than be under bondage to some socialist "humanitarian" bill.
What in the world are you talking about?
Time for the popcorn. If he answers it should be quite entertaining.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Taq, posted 01-05-2023 12:55 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 171 of 178 (904699)
01-05-2023 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by ringo
01-05-2023 12:15 PM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
ringo writes:
Where are you getting this crap?
To be honest, I am speculating. I am essentially "making this crap up". Now to again defend my speculations (and imaginations) I argue that the facts show that global debt is slowly increasing. Can someone explain to me why perpetual debt is necessary? Why cant money simply have an intrinsic value that we can spend as we need? Why must "the world" live beyond its means? Its one thing to go into debt (temporarily) if a Tsunami, Flood, or War breaks out. It is quite another to always spend beyond our means simply because we need so much. We should have been saving all of those years we were spending. Look, we know that global population is increasing. We know that many people will be hungry. We know that we will need money in the future for climate change. My point is that we should have been saving for these inevitabilities rather than going into debt. Debt is bondage.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 01-05-2023 12:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by nwr, posted 01-05-2023 3:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 01-06-2023 10:57 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 172 of 178 (904700)
01-05-2023 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Tanypteryx
01-05-2023 1:00 PM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Damselfly writes:
Why are you equating religious tithing with taxes paid to the government to provide services to all the citizens? You clearly don't think YOU or the wealthy should pay your fair shares for the benefits you receive by living in a civilized country.
To start with, define "fair share". So if a guy at the end of the block saved up a million dollars he has to pay more than the rest of us just to fix the potholes in the street?
The debt is not an unpaid, overdue bill that debtors are clambering for immediate payment, rather it is bonds that are owned by investors and paid off when they mature after 10, or 20, or 30 years. In the U.S., the Congress passes bills each year to authorize payments to service the bonds that mature that year.
What guarantee do we have that the bonds will always be worth more?
Exponential growth is the normal way to describe increases in all financial systems.
Well, we *do* know that global population is increasing, while resources are not. We do know that the global debt is increasing and has not gone backwards ever. So again, in a fiat money system where the money is magically assigned a value by the public-at-large, do we imagine (fantasize) that exponential growth is the norm? Are we legends in our own minds?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2023 1:00 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Taq, posted 01-05-2023 2:22 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 176 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2023 3:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9323
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 173 of 178 (904701)
01-05-2023 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
01-05-2023 2:07 PM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Phat writes:
To start with, define "fair share". So if a guy at the end of the block saved up a million dollars he has to pay more than the rest of us just to fix the potholes in the street?
For centuries now, citizens of the US have considered regressive taxes to be unfair. Instead, society strongly favors progressive taxes. The more you make, the more you pay in taxes.
What guarantee do we have that the bonds will always be worth more?
Nothing but trust and history. When was the last time the US forfeited on debt payments? This is why the US has such a high credit rating.
Of course, with the yahoos about to take control of the House that could change. They seem to think forfeiting on debt is just fine.
Well, we *do* know that global population is increasing, while resources are not. We do know that the global debt is increasing and has not gone backwards ever. So again, in a fiat money system where the money is magically assigned a value by the public-at-large, do we imagine (fantasize) that exponential growth is the norm? Are we legends in our own minds?
EVERYTHING is magically assigned a value. EVERYTHING. What is it about this that you don't understand?
Can debt increase forever? Obviously not. Debt has been paid down before, and there is no reason it can't again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 2:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6244
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 174 of 178 (904702)
01-05-2023 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
01-05-2023 11:55 AM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Which is why I defend private property rights.
No, you do not defend property rights.
And if the debt becomes unsustainable, we all should simply agree to wipe the slate clean rather than be under bondage to some socialist "humanitarian" bill.
That's your denial of property rights. You are saying that the property of those who own the debt should be stolen.
Is that your version of "Christian values".

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 11:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6244
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 175 of 178 (904703)
01-05-2023 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
01-05-2023 1:58 PM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Why cant money simply have an intrinsic value that we can spend as we need?
Because there is no such thing as "intrinsic value".

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 1:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3773
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 176 of 178 (904704)
01-05-2023 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
01-05-2023 2:07 PM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Phat writes:
Damselfly writes:
Why are you equating religious tithing with taxes paid to the government to provide services to all the citizens? You clearly don't think YOU or the wealthy should pay your fair shares for the benefits you receive by living in a civilized country.
To start with, define "fair share". So if a guy at the end of the block saved up a million dollars he has to pay more than the rest of us just to fix the potholes in the street?
Tax rate is set in laws passed by Congress. Fair share would be to tax everyone at the same rate and to count all increase of wealth as taxable income. No tax breaks, no loopholes. IMO progressive tax rates are fair because they make the wealthy pay extra for the extra influence and benefit from government services that their wealth affords them. Tax income, not savings.
Phat writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
The debt is not an unpaid, overdue bill that debtors are clambering for immediate payment, rather it is bonds that are owned by investors and paid off when they mature after 10, or 20, or 30 years. In the U.S., the Congress passes bills each year to authorize payments to service the bonds that mature that year.
What guarantee do we have that the bonds will always be worth more?
The issuer (in this case the U.S. government) guarantees the interest rate on the bonds, it's a contract. If the issuer defaults on the payment their credit rating drops and investors will not buy new bonds. Performance of the issuer determines future success at issuing bonds. For example look up the Whoops Bond Default: The Washington Public Power Supply System (WPPSS), which was nicknamed Whoops, was the largest municipal bond default in history.
Phat writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
Exponential growth is the normal way to describe increases in all financial systems.
Well, we *do* know that global population is increasing, while resources are not. We do know that the global debt is increasing and has not gone backwards ever. So again, in a fiat money system where the money is magically assigned a value by the public-at-large, do we imagine (fantasize) that exponential growth is the norm? Are we legends in our own minds?
I have no idea what the relevance of population growth is to this discussion of debt.
Phat writes:
We do know that the global debt is increasing and has not gone backwards ever.
So? The global financial systems seem to be functioning. Global financial systems seem to measures of productivity as well as debt. You don't seem to realize that global means limited to the closed system of this single planet. Debt for the whole planet can never exceed the productivity and resources of the whole planet.
Phat writes:
So again, in a fiat money system where the money is magically assigned a value by the public-at-large, do we imagine (fantasize) that exponential growth is the norm?
Yes, financial growth is exponential. Do you have some other way to mathematically describe normal financial growth?
I don't see how magic is involved with determining the prices of things that people buy. Have you ever heard of supply and demand?
Are we legends in our own minds?
I have no clue what's going on in your mind.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 2:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 177 of 178 (904724)
01-06-2023 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
01-05-2023 1:58 PM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Phat writes:
Can someone explain to me why perpetual debt is necessary?
First, can YOU explain why perpetual debt is a bad thing?
Phat writes:
Why cant money simply have an intrinsic value that we can spend as we need?
The only "intrinsic value" in anything is our individual and collective productivity. Gold has very limited value, for things like electrical contacts and jewelry. It is "worth" only what people will pay for it, like anything else.
"Money" has never been anything but a medium of exchange. People agree that a pound of bacon (which has actual value) is worth so-and-so much gold, or such-and-such a number on paper.
Phat writes:
Why must "the world" live beyond its means?
The world is living beyond its means only in terms of the pollutants we are putting into the atmosphere, the oceans, etc.
Phat writes:
Debt is bondage.
Bumper sticker.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 1:58 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Theodoric, posted 01-06-2023 11:19 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 178 of 178 (904728)
01-06-2023 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
01-06-2023 10:57 AM


Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
Since Phat dislikes actual currency, maybe he thinks we should go back to a barter system. I wonder if he thinks retirement accounts should pay out in durable goods or just precious metals. Where are they going to get the precious metals from?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 01-06-2023 10:57 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2023