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Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 160 of 328 (904679)
01-05-2023 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
01-02-2023 12:26 PM


Re: Trump Card
I did some online fact checking from various sources. Here is what I found.
Fact-check: Are Democrats responsible for the growth of the national debt? ( Jon Greenberg, PolitiFact.com )
Verdict: Mixed but fefinitely not one-sided.
**************
​​What’s the National Debt by President?
To wit:
  • The national debt, which has surpassed $30 trillion, shows how much the federal government owes.
  • All but two presidents since 1900 have contributed to the national debt, some more than others.
  • More significant contributions have been a result of government spending to finance wars and economic recovery.
  • While a country’s national debt and gross domestic product are often correlated, too much debt compared to a country’s GDP can negatively impact economic growth.
    ******************************************************************
    Keep in mind that presidents generally don’t have any control over the budget during their first year in office because it’s already set in stone by the previous president.[3] We adjusted the figures to account for this fact.
    Here’s how each president has contributed to that debt since the turn of the 20th century[4-7]:
    Joe Biden (D) 2021 - present $1.84 trillion 6.33%
    Donald Trump (R)2017 - 2021 $8.2 trillion 40.43%
    Barack Obama (D)2009 - 2017 $8.34 trillion 69.98%
    Dubya Bus(R) 2001 -2009 $6.1 trillion 105.08%
    Bill Clinton (D) 1993 - 2001 $1.4 trillion 31.64%
    H.W. Bush (R) 1989 - 1993 $1.55 trillion 54.39%
    Ronald Reagan(R)1981 - 1989 $1.86 trillion 186.36%
    Jimmy Carter(D) 1977 - 1981 $299 billion 42.79%
    Gerald Ford(R) 1974 - 1977 $223.8 billion 47.11%
    Richard Nixon(R) 1969 - 1974 $121.3 billion 34.3%
    LBJ (D) -1963 - 1969 $42 billion 13.48%
    JFK (D) 1961 - 1963 $22.7 billion 7.87%
    Eisenhower(R) 1953 - 1961 $22.9 billion 8.61%
    Harry S. Truman(D)1945 - 1953 $7.4 billion 2.86%
    Franklin Roosevelt(D)1933 -1945 $236.1 billion 1,047.73%
    Herbert Hoover 1929 - 1933 $5.6 billion 33.12%
    Calvin Coolidge 1923 - 1929 -$5.42 billion -24.24%
    Warren G. Harding 1921 - 1923 -$1.63 billion -6.79%
    Woodrow Wilson 1913 - 1921 $21 billion 722.21%
    William H. Taft 1909 - 1913 $276.7 million 10.48%
    Theodore Roosevelt 1901 - 1909 $502.6 million 23.52%
    It looks pretty evenly mixed.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 156 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 12:26 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 162 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 8:11 AM Phat has replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 161 of 328 (904680)
    01-05-2023 1:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 157 by dwise1
    01-02-2023 1:13 PM


    Re: Trump Card
    Record Date Debt Held by the Public Intragovernmental Holdings Total Public Debt
    1/3/2023
    $24,507,554,337,075. $6,843,631,783,954. $31,351,186,121,029.
    There is no way that such a figure is sustainable if it increases year after year more than the tax revenue

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 157 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2023 1:13 PM dwise1 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 163 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 8:12 AM Phat has replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 165 of 328 (904691)
    01-05-2023 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 162 by Theodoric
    01-05-2023 8:11 AM


    Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
    Theo writes:
    The government has had debt since before it was officially formed. Our economy is big enough to handle the debt load.
    Then why is the debt growing exponentially? Heck, we cant even handle the deficeit! You do know the difference,don't you?
    Is it something that needs to be controlled? Yes. Is it something to panic about? No. The debt cannot and should not be eliminated.
    Lets examine global debt for a moment.
    Riding the Global Debt Rollercoaster
    IMF:
    Global debt remained above pre-pandemic levels in 2021 even after posting the steepest decline in 70 years, underscoring the challenges for policymakers.
    Total public and private debt decreased in 2021 to the equivalent of 247 percent of global gross domestic product, falling by 10 percentage points from its peak level in 2020, according to the latest update of the IMF’s Global Debt Database. Expressed in dollar terms, however, global debt continued to rise, although at a much slower rate, reaching a record $235 trillion last year.

    The world and US economy would not be able to handle or survive massive debt reduction. There are too many other things(like housing and feeding people) that are much more important.
    So in other words, lets all go into debt for a problem that wont go away. Do you really think that an ever increasing debt is the inevitable status of global fiat money economies? And if so, why is it necessary? I sometimes think that the Bible will be proven right and that all of us will be perpetually on the hook for paying the bill off.(...cannot buy or sell without the mark. Without being linked into a socialist "democratic" system of human obligation. Which is why I defend private property rights. Even the Bible tells us to
    2 Cor 9:6-8 writes:
    6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
    Government should never mandate compulsory giving beyond reasonable taxation. And if the debt becomes unsustainable, we all should simply agree to wipe the slate clean rather than be under bondage to some socialist "humanitarian" bill.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 8:11 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 166 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 167 by ringo, posted 01-05-2023 12:15 PM Phat has replied
     Message 168 by Taq, posted 01-05-2023 12:55 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 169 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2023 1:00 PM Phat has replied
     Message 174 by nwr, posted 01-05-2023 2:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 171 of 328 (904699)
    01-05-2023 1:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 167 by ringo
    01-05-2023 12:15 PM


    Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
    ringo writes:
    Where are you getting this crap?
    To be honest, I am speculating. I am essentially "making this crap up". Now to again defend my speculations (and imaginations) I argue that the facts show that global debt is slowly increasing. Can someone explain to me why perpetual debt is necessary? Why cant money simply have an intrinsic value that we can spend as we need? Why must "the world" live beyond its means? Its one thing to go into debt (temporarily) if a Tsunami, Flood, or War breaks out. It is quite another to always spend beyond our means simply because we need so much. We should have been saving all of those years we were spending. Look, we know that global population is increasing. We know that many people will be hungry. We know that we will need money in the future for climate change. My point is that we should have been saving for these inevitabilities rather than going into debt. Debt is bondage.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 167 by ringo, posted 01-05-2023 12:15 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 175 by nwr, posted 01-05-2023 3:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 172 of 328 (904700)
    01-05-2023 2:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 169 by Tanypteryx
    01-05-2023 1:00 PM


    Re: Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
    Damselfly writes:
    Why are you equating religious tithing with taxes paid to the government to provide services to all the citizens? You clearly don't think YOU or the wealthy should pay your fair shares for the benefits you receive by living in a civilized country.
    To start with, define "fair share". So if a guy at the end of the block saved up a million dollars he has to pay more than the rest of us just to fix the potholes in the street?
    The debt is not an unpaid, overdue bill that debtors are clambering for immediate payment, rather it is bonds that are owned by investors and paid off when they mature after 10, or 20, or 30 years. In the U.S., the Congress passes bills each year to authorize payments to service the bonds that mature that year.
    What guarantee do we have that the bonds will always be worth more?
    Exponential growth is the normal way to describe increases in all financial systems.
    Well, we *do* know that global population is increasing, while resources are not. We do know that the global debt is increasing and has not gone backwards ever. So again, in a fiat money system where the money is magically assigned a value by the public-at-large, do we imagine (fantasize) that exponential growth is the norm? Are we legends in our own minds?

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 169 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2023 1:00 PM Tanypteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 173 by Taq, posted 01-05-2023 2:22 PM Phat has not replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 179 of 328 (909163)
    03-28-2023 7:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
    01-05-2023 1:23 AM


    The Debt: 3 Months Later
    Projected Debt
    Sometimes I think that the progressives actually want this debt tied to the public-at-large and want to make sure there is no way to get out of it.
    The conservatives, by contrast, want to lay the blame on the government.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 161 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 1:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 180 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-28-2023 7:48 PM Phat has replied
     Message 188 by Taq, posted 03-29-2023 11:50 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 181 of 328 (909166)
    03-28-2023 7:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 180 by Tanypteryx
    03-28-2023 7:48 PM


    Re: The Debt: 3 Months Later
    The current rate of inflation is higher than the expected values of maturing bonds.
    There is no way to stop inflation in todays world. It will slowly chew all of our incomes up.
    No matter which political party we assign blame to, the problem is ALL of ours. The solution has not yet been proposed.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 180 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-28-2023 7:48 PM Tanypteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 183 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-28-2023 8:07 PM Phat has not replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 189 of 328 (909239)
    03-30-2023 1:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 188 by Taq
    03-29-2023 11:50 AM


    Re: The Debt: 3 Months Later
    The only reason that I can think of is that progressives are not always about progress
    Modern Monetary Theory is a great example of foolish thinking. This whole idea that the West can continue to create more debt with no repercussions is naive and short sighted.
    You may claim that the dollar is strong, but it is an illusion. The dollars best days are behind it. There are evident cracks in the Western Armor. One of them is the recent development by China and the Saudis to create what in essence will become a Petro-Renubi. The Petro Dollar is breaking down. There is no hard asset left that serves to stabilize the US Dollar. Some day soon, within the next five years, the nations that have bought T-Bills will dump them back on the US and cease buying more. The move will be started by perhaps only one nation, but others will follow. The United States will lose the advantage that we have enjoyed for over 50 years of being able to "print" our way out of trouble. The banking crises will slowly spread until perhaps as little as 5-10 years from now there will only be six major banks left--backed by the Federal Reserve.
    And we have other problems too. Because we backed Ukraine and gave them so many weapons, we ourselves have depleted our own stocks of weapons and need to replace them. Im not arguing against that war,mind you---we had to take a stand, but what we have done by weaponizing the dollar is to drive Russia into Chinas camp. Essentially, the BRICS alliance is now fully committed to bypass the US Dollar and create their own global reserve currency. They cant match us yet, but the alliances that they are forming will eventually include most of the global population and most of the global resources.
    Im not going to do a lot of digging in order to prove any of this to you all. I simply stand by my assertions and time will tell how insane I am.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    God alone is God
    but
    God is not alone
    ~Ellis Potter
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 188 by Taq, posted 03-29-2023 11:50 AM Taq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 190 by Taq, posted 03-30-2023 10:59 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 191 of 328 (909354)
    04-01-2023 3:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 184 by Tanypteryx
    03-28-2023 8:13 PM


    Re: The Debt: 3 Months Later
    Tanypteryx writes:
    Is the answer coming anytime soon? I'm beginning to think that you are bullshitting us.
    Just what exactly is this duping that you have brilliantly uncovered?
    The way that my thinking process works is that I gather a lot of information from various sources and compare it with contrary points presented by common sources such as direct quotes from Powell and Yellen themselves. Before I do, however, let me ask you genius's a question. Why is it that the Fed alternates so radically between QE and QT? And why do they raise interest rates one quarter only to lower them another? In my mind, it takes no rocket scientist to draw a corrollary of a car stuck in the mud. First, the driver floors it. next,they shift into reverse. Why? Because they are STUCK!! Just as our economy is STUCK. And we wont get out of the mud.
    What is a Fed Pivot and Why Does It Matter?
    Investopedia:
    A Fed pivot involves the U.S. central bank changing course and reversing its prior monetary policy stance. If the economy appears to be entering a recession, the Fed may pivot from a high interest rate environment to an accommodative monetary policy, featuring lower interest rates, increased open market operations (OMO), and quantitative easing (QE).
    We are not only heading into a recession but a full blown depression. Your optimism regarding a perpetually strong dollar is naive.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 184 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-28-2023 8:13 PM Tanypteryx has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 192 of 328 (909355)
    04-01-2023 3:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 190 by Taq
    03-30-2023 10:59 AM


    Re: The Debt: 3 Months Later
    Phat writes:
    Essentially, the BRICS alliance is now fully committed to bypass the US Dollar and create their own global reserve currency.
    Taq writes:
    That currency would be a fiat currency just like the US dollar.
    Oh?
    GOLD REVALUATION: BRICS Currency Will Feature Significant Gold Backing
    quote:
    BRICS is at the center of a changing currency game, going from the dollar as a reserve currency to a basket of global currencies backed by gold.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 190 by Taq, posted 03-30-2023 10:59 AM Taq has not replied

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     Message 193 by Phat, posted 04-01-2023 3:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 196 by Theodoric, posted 04-01-2023 4:42 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 193 of 328 (909356)
    04-01-2023 3:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 192 by Phat
    04-01-2023 3:26 PM


    Re: The Debt: 3 Months Later
    Also watch this. (I know none of you will, but thats your problem!
    This whole problem started with the FED bailing out the banks in 2007-2008. It has been accelerated by monetizing the debt since then.
    I predict that soon my "outlandish youtube claims" will become mainstream news.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by Phat, posted 04-01-2023 3:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 195 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-01-2023 4:08 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 197 of 328 (909406)
    04-03-2023 11:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 196 by Theodoric
    04-01-2023 4:42 PM


    More Examples Of Upcoming DeDollarization
    Theodoric writes:
    One guy and he is a fraudster
    You must have feverishly googled to find dirt on him. Either that or you dismiss ANYONE offhandedly simply for being precious metals dealers. If so, you won't believe the integrity of Andy Schectman either, though he is one of the most knowledgeable commentators regarding the financial future of the global economy.
    I also will cite Robet Wolf, a Marxist economist who presents a strong case that supports the "fraudsters" as you call them.
    Ask Prof Wolff: Is the U.S. Dollar in Trouble? Wolf states that (From Transcript)
    quote:
    ...as the dollar loses its Primacy as more
    and more people around the world stop using the dollar(or) reduce using the dollar all those advantages and many more I don't have the time to go into will be/are being lost and the impact on the American economy will be large and cumulative over time well then why is the dollar losing its Primacy much of it has to do with geopolitics to put it very bluntly and simply other parts of the world don't want to keep having workers produce and businesses produce valuable goods and services shipping them to the United States and getting in return dollars they want the benefits of a currency like the United States has gotten but they want to share in it too by having their currency become as important as the United States...

    And of course Schectman also has a grasp of the implications of the future in global finance.
    You likely wont watch his presentation either which is fine...but none of you have any valid counter arguments due to the fact that you are simply spoonfed your financial knowledge through listening to mainstream news and the Central Bankers. You are the ones being duped...not I. Oh and by the way, present your evidence that Dr.Stephen Leeb is a fraud.
    Next you can look up Schectman. I did, and found nothing that discredited him.
    All of the information that Schectman claims can be found easily. Some of it is now font page news. As I said before, you skeptics here at EvC will soon find my "whacky youtube pundits" will soon become mainstream news as the dollar does, in fact, start to unravel.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 196 by Theodoric, posted 04-01-2023 4:42 PM Theodoric has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 198 of 328 (909408)
    04-03-2023 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 195 by Tanypteryx
    04-01-2023 4:08 PM


    Re: The Debt: 3 Months Later
    Tanypteryx writes:
    Monetizing the debt? What does that mean?
    Quantitative Easing is one synonym, though to be more precise:
    Government Debt Monetization In and of itself, the theory has some credibility in the past, though global debt has skyrocketed. The #2 person at the Federal Reserve is a Modern Monetary Theorist, which, as you all know, I disagree with (that philosophy)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 195 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-01-2023 4:08 PM Tanypteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 200 by PaulK, posted 04-03-2023 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 205 of 328 (909480)
    04-04-2023 12:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 204 by Tanypteryx
    04-03-2023 2:03 PM


    A Damselfly In Distress
    A common refrain heard around here focuses on who is and is not an expert in a particular field of study and/or business. Public perception of a problem and varied opinions on the severity of a problem are often dismissed as uninformed and uneducated. How a bug scientist from Oregon could understand finance any better than a self taught grocery clerk with a voracious appetite for knowledge is puzzling. Can a Dragonfly teach you ANYTHING at all about History? About Global Trends? About shifting public opinion? Can simply watching speeches by Jerome Powell and Janet Yellin put you at any more ease than what they are in fact designed to do? (Which is to calm the public and quell rumors) The sources of information which I see are varied, but they all essentially tell me what I need to know. Powell and Yellin are theoretical intellectuals with no clue as to the insights of daily public transactions regarding the money which they are supposed to know about. In such a case, a grocery clerk who interacts with the people who actually spend their hard earned money counts just as much as any vague economics theory degree.
    Theodoric writes:
    The idiot still has no idea how the economy, financial markets and the government work. You would think with all of his whining, bitching and misinformation he would.have learned something.
    Nor does the Historian know anything about how finances work. All that you know, if even that, are orthodox terminology and definitions of terms. You believe your government. You appeal to authority, even though there is no evidence that the authority even knows what they are doing. All that you have to show me is a resume of their college degree qualifications. And thats not good enough.That's because inflation is global right now due to shocks to the global economy by the Covid pandemic, but the actions by the Fed has kept inflation much lower here than in many other countries.[/qs] Did you know that the US essentially "exports" our inflation to other less powerful countries?
    Tanypteryx writes:
    Please show me where I have ever expressed any opinion about the strength of the dollar.
    Im sorry, but I had you confused with Taq. He is the one arguing that the dollar is strong. Numbers and graphs alone do not tell the whole story, however.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 204 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-03-2023 2:03 PM Tanypteryx has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 207 of 328 (909514)
    04-05-2023 4:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 163 by Theodoric
    01-05-2023 8:12 AM


    Re: Trump Card
    double post

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 163 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 8:12 AM Theodoric has not replied

      
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