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Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 102 of 328 (896266)
08-03-2022 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by AZPaul3
08-03-2022 9:03 PM


Re: Redefining The American Dream

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2022 9:03 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 328 (896269)
08-04-2022 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Theodoric
08-03-2022 5:38 PM


Re: Ringo needs to define the Side Of The Public
Theodoric writes:
How about responding to my questions...
Ok.
Nixon said that he was defending the dollar against the speculators. Using Percy's source of Nixon's initial speech, the direct quote is Message 100
Percy writes:
If anyone's interested, here's the Nixon speech about international money speculators and going off the gold standard that he made on August 15, 1971: Address to the Nation Outlining a New Economic Policy: "The Challenge of Peace."
But it now seems to me that Gold itself is being defended against speculators. The dollar took its place,(so they think) and we simply can't have any other country profiting more than ourselves. (which alas, China will eventually do. All of those "ghost cities" will fill up with middle-class Chinese while our aging bunch dies off!
Source and relevance.
I don't have facts offhand to back this up except my belief that Gold is and was the only real money that is not debt-based and thus someone else's obligation. Note how much Gold is held by countries:
quote
Countries With the Largest Gold Reserves in the World
1. United States: 8,133.5 tons. During the height of the Bretton Woods system of international exchange, when the U.S. offered to house and protect other countries' gold in exchange for dollars, it was reported that between 90% and 95% of the entire world's gold reserves lay in American vaults.3 Decades later, the U.S. still holds the most. Gold makes up over 75% of its foreign reserves.
2. Germany: 3,359.1 tons. Germany keeps its gold reserves in the Deutsche Bundesbank in Frankfurt am Main, the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank branch in New York, and the Bank of England in London.
3. Italy: 2,451.8 tons. The eurozone crisis led some to call for Italy's government to sell some of its gold reserves to raise funds, but no such plans ever materialized.
4. France: 2,436.5 tons. Former President of France Charles de Gaulle was partially responsible for the collapse of the Bretton Woods system when he called the U.S. bluff and began actually trading dollars in for gold from the Fort Knox reserves.
Then-president Richard Nixon, who knew that the fixed rate of $35 per gold ounce was too low, eventually was forced to take the U.S. off the gold standard, ending the dollar's automatic convertibility into gold.
5. Russia: 2,301.6 tons. Russia overtook China as the fifth-largest holder of the yellow metal in 2018.5 Russia's increase in its gold stores was seen as an attempt to diversify beyond American investments. Russia mainly sold U.S. Treasury bonds to buy the bullion.
The U.S. continues to safeguard gold belonging to other countries. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York is the custodian of gold owned by foreign governments, foreign central banks, and official international organizations.
If a man has gold, and the value was allowed unfettered market speculation, he could profit from inflated currencies and also hide his true assets from government oversight.
Theo writes:
Explain how.
Because Gold holds its value much better than either currencies or blockchains. This is true of hard assets like commodities in general, though Gold is the backbone of Central Bank backing.
To what end?
If one buys small quantities of precious metals they slip below the radar and are not liable for capital gains. And I don't trust governments nor do I feel they should have that much authority over money.
Theo writes:
Why? Alternative?
Because if the government continues creating money out of thin air, they can't expect the public to pay it back. It simply is as unfair as a bail-in would be. Do you know the theory behind bail-ins?
Phat writes:
I realize that Money competes with money.
Explain what this means. Relevance?
It6 means that not all money is "public money". Some of it is (or should be) private money. Money that is not subject to government control in order to bail out the system through bailing in the assets of banks.
Phat writes:
And eventual global control over where any and all of the money is kept at any given moment.
Theo writes:
How? By who? The big them?
Let's just say I'm paranoid of being controlled. I'm honest apart from the fact that some things should be kept private and not part of a giant pool of money controlled by governments.
Another thing that people don't seem to believe is that Gold still backs fiat money indirectly and will do so until the banks get rid of their holdings...in which case it will become a relic of the past. A 5000-year track record is nothing to dismiss so lightly, however.

Edited by Phat, : corrected a sentence I said...in context


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 5:38 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Theodoric, posted 08-04-2022 10:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 328 (896762)
08-20-2022 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Theodoric
08-19-2022 2:44 PM


Fiat Money Pros & Cons
Theodoric writes:
Seems to be another major crypto crash today. Funny how we don't have to worry about that with fiat currencies.
By and large you are right. Fiat Currencies are much more stable...largely because they are controlled by the Central Bank. Looking up a few sources I found a rational comparison list:
Fiat Money: Advantages and Disadvantages
First the advantages:
  • Provides the government with the capacity to exert considerable control over the economy through the monetary policy of the central bank
  • The Great Depression demonstrated how abandoning commodity money to print money out of thin air could effectively stimulate the economy
  • Fiat money is more practical than money tied to gold or silver because it does not depend on a finite resource that requires costly production
  • Population growth and increased economic activity would outpace the capacity of societies to mine precious metals
    Now for the disadvantages:
  • It can lose its value due to inflation or become worthless during hyperinflation for the simplest reason that it is not backed up by physical reserves
  • History shows that some governments can have the propensity to overprint money, thus artificially increasing the money supply
  • Money is essentially created infinitely without intrinsically valuable commodity or more specifically, out of thin air at the expense of inflation
  • • It artificially lowers interest rates and provides incentives for taking excessive risks, thus leading to an escalating solvency crisis
  • Personally, I feel that the United States has "printed" more money than they should have.
    Other nations have done the same thing, however. Perhaps this argument can be hypothetically settled by either an optimist or a pessimist.
    How trustworthy is our government?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 110 by Theodoric, posted 08-19-2022 2:44 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 112 by Theodoric, posted 08-20-2022 9:59 AM Phat has replied
     Message 113 by Percy, posted 08-20-2022 10:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 114 of 328 (896766)
    08-20-2022 1:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by Theodoric
    08-20-2022 9:59 AM


    Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons
    It just so happens that this argument....wrritten by whosoever....puddentame for all I care...is very similar to one I would make. In my own words, Fiat Currency is backed by the government and is as stable as the government is.
    "printing excessive money" which is a misnomer since money never gets printed in such large amounts...it gets "created into existence" as an added ledger on a balance sheet.
    I argue that this type of financial strategy leaves the United States very vulnerable should the world lose trust in the dollar system. jar used to always say succinctly that "the bill *will* get paid" but neither you nor I want to be responsible for a bill in the many trillions of dollars. Of course every administration has its political projects that simply must be paid, be they green new deals or be they tax breaks for the captains of industry.
    Personally, I think we got rid of reliance on oil and natural gas far too early. The rest of the world is using it as carefree as ever, and even if the United States were able to go green (net zero and all that) within twenty years, the planet is gonna go down as far as sustaining humans and their grand schemes. Give it 80 years. And I hate being so negative, but it irritates me why the US is the sacred cow at the expense of our hard-working people.
    I think that the whole planet needs to make sacrifices equally. Tell that to the CCP!
    So what does this have to do with fiat money you may ask?
    It's all about stability. Is the US stable? Does our government care if they anger the working class? Are they creating inflation in effect to "pay the bill"?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by Theodoric, posted 08-20-2022 9:59 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 115 by nwr, posted 08-20-2022 2:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 128 of 328 (904407)
    12-29-2022 7:31 AM


    Scare Tactics or Simply an Informed Opinion?
    (Argument redirected from the weather topic Message 34 )
    Daniella Cambone works for Stansberry Research. She is a delightful host and has some great interviews with people who actually work in the financial industry and who are (or appear to be) better informed at global financial trends than are the average peanut gallery member who has to actually pay for their own financial advice and advisor and who trusts Source over Content. In the case of these interviews, I trust Content over Source.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2022 9:41 AM Phat has replied
     Message 130 by Taq, posted 12-29-2022 12:45 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 131 of 328 (904449)
    12-30-2022 9:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 130 by Taq
    12-29-2022 12:45 PM


    Re: Scare Tactics or Simply an Informed Opinion?
    So?
    Listen, I don't agree with nor approve of this whole idea that the people back the money and that the money is in the hands of the governments by and for the people. The world as we know it is competitive before it is cooperative. That's human nature. This whole illusion that the West, representative of and backed by the US dollar is a unified force for democracy is a lie. We will fall. And don't blame the Republicans when it happens. Don't blame the rich. Look in the mirror.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by Taq, posted 12-29-2022 12:45 PM Taq has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2022 9:59 AM Phat has replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 132 of 328 (904450)
    12-30-2022 9:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Theodoric
    12-29-2022 9:41 AM


    Re: Scare Tactics or Simply an Informed Opinion?
    Racists and homophobes, eh? I suppose Porter is lumped in the same camp as Ray Dalio, who is rich and a libertarian. You and your extremist (not evidenced) view of Democracy and reality is both authoritarian and disgusting.
    rant writes:
    Fuck me for having an opinion concerning the future reality of capitalism. All that you seem capable of doing is attacking my sources. I can easily attack yours as well. Your fucked up senile old man of a president can no more build back better than he can understand that the economy of his nation is about to implode. You narrow-minded extremists want to tax the (far right conservative) rich and hold their wallets to the fire, but the fire will end up consuming each one of you and every damn thing you own. And you are too stupid to see it.
    On the plus side, my inner echo chamber actually approved of Reviewopedia. Why?
    Here is what it says about another one of my favorites, Jim Rickards.
    Jim Richards
    reviewopedia:
    Jim Rickards has an impressive education background and has had many high level roles in finance firms. He states that his beliefs are strongly forged by his real world experiences.
    He also uses his role as an “insider” heavily in the marketing of his books and newsletters. (...)As you can tell by the titles, he brings an alarmist approach to analyzing global fiscal and monetary policy and the effects he believes they will have on economies.
    His reactionary style urges investors to plan ahead and provide safeguards for their assets and plan for inevitable market downturns and inflation.
    One of his other recurring themes is how vulnerable the US dollar and US markets are to foreign exploitation and how to protect yourself.
    These perceived threats influence his investment advice, which generally suggests to diversify and keep tangible assets such as gold and other precious metals. (...)His most recent presentation titled “Beware, Biden Bucks” proclaims that the US Government is planning on converting to a digital dollar that's similar to cryptocurrency except that this one would be entirely controlled by the US government.
    He fears that this will lead to a surveillance state in which all your transactions will be monitored and potentially even used against you. (...) Is Jim Rickards a Scam?
    --That being said, you can still find value in Jim Rickard's advice, books, and world views. For instance, hedging against the collapse of the US dollar may prove to be good advice in the long run.
    However, we find that Rickard's use of strong and emotional messaging in sales pitches for his products is usually a red flag.

    Lest we forget, there is feedback on reviewopedia itself!
    It looks to be peer reviewed and reputable.
    Reviewopedia

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2022 9:41 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2022 9:55 AM Phat has replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 134 of 328 (904453)
    12-30-2022 9:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 133 by Theodoric
    12-30-2022 9:55 AM


    Re: Scare Tactics or Simply an Informed Opinion?
    Theo writes:
    I demand evidence. I demand reputable sources. Not charlatans fleecing the rubes.
    I will put my sources and evidence against the crap you throw against the wall any day.
    Fair enough. At least you are honest. You wear your balls on your sleeve.
    BTW I edited my post 132.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2022 9:55 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 137 of 328 (904458)
    12-30-2022 10:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 135 by Theodoric
    12-30-2022 9:59 AM


    Re: Scare Tactics or Simply an Informed Opinion?
    Theo writes:
    So present a proposal to have the US dollar backed by gold reserves.
    Seems silly and not possible, but go ahead and tell us how it would be done.
    I dont have anything yet, but I will mention the top holders of gold as being Central Banks and the IMF. Global debt is itself a bubble. There will be a reset. As jar used to always say, "the bill will get paid". It may seem silly to have a dollar backed by gold but it is even sillier to imagine the trust of the public at large being stable.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2022 9:59 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 142 of 328 (904479)
    12-30-2022 1:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 141 by Tangle
    12-30-2022 12:54 PM


    Trump Card
    You could take 50% of the wealth from the Forbes 400 and barely make a dent in the national debt. That's what irritates me....this huge debt. And it's Democrats as well as Republicans that have created that debt.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 141 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2022 12:54 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 143 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2022 1:37 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 144 of 328 (904482)
    12-30-2022 3:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 143 by Tangle
    12-30-2022 1:37 PM


    Re: Trump Card
    How are you going to tax them? They have legal loopholes. Fair is not the issue. I think its unfair for the middle class to get wiped out simply to help the poor since the rich won't do it if thats what you mean.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 143 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2022 1:37 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 145 by xongsmith, posted 12-30-2022 4:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 148 of 328 (904560)
    01-01-2023 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 143 by Tangle
    12-30-2022 1:37 PM


    Re: Trump Card
    Tangle writes:
    So you think it's ok for the super wealthy to pay no tax?
    Tax them all you want. You still will have an unpayable National Debt. A tax increase for the wealthy wont solve the fiscal problems that a Democratically appointed Federal Reserve has caused. The Democrats will get rightly blamed for the next economic crash.
    Raising taxes wont prevent this crises. We lied to ourselves when we thought that fiat currencies were a good idea. Don't listen to me. Ask your revered financial experts. The buck stops with them.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 143 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2022 1:37 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 150 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2023 1:00 PM Phat has replied
     Message 156 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 12:26 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 149 of 328 (904561)
    01-01-2023 12:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 146 by Tangle
    12-30-2022 4:37 PM


    Re: Trump Card
    tangle writes:
    I'd like to you to say that you don't think it's fair that Trump pays less tax than pretty much anyone in America, including a store supervisor.
    OK its not fair. My point, however, is that taxing the rich will not and never has been able to fix Democratically created problems. The problem in my mind is that idealogues thought that money could be backed only by the people (globally, perhaps?) and that we would all finally embrace and agree on a kum-ba-yah platform that helps every widow, takes care of every old person, educates every child and keeps *all* of us healthy and allows thieves free reign over the retailers. Poor darlings! Those mean Republicans are to blame!
    *sheesh, give me a break!*

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 146 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2022 4:37 PM Tangle has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 151 of 328 (904576)
    01-02-2023 9:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 150 by Tangle
    01-01-2023 1:00 PM


    The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
    Phat writes:
    Tax them all you want. You still will have an unpayable National Debt.
    Tangle writes:
    You just can't bring yourself to say that people - whoever they are - should pay their fair share of tax can you?
    I'm all for that. One of my best friends, politically Democratic and moderately liberal, says that he wouldnt mind being taxed more if it would help the country-at-large.
    You don't actually want a fair society, a Christian society, where people all chip in for the common good at all do you?
    The problem is that we are a secular society (not a problem in itself) that has other spirits running the place other than the Holy one. (But of course you call such talk madness.
    Phat writes:
    A tax increase for the wealthy won't solve the fiscal problems that a Democratically appointed Federal Reserve has caused.
    Tangle writes:
    I couldn't care less about the crap that you're obsessing about today, the point is to imagine a fair system and implement it. After that, you might find that other things become possible too.
    This is what baffles me about you. You claim to have some knowledge and insight into the financial system and how it works, but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.
    Tangle writes:
    ...the point is to imagine a fair system and implement it.
    I agree. But we can't go on wrestling in a burning house.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 150 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2023 1:00 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 10:00 AM Phat has replied
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 153 of 328 (904582)
    01-02-2023 10:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 152 by Theodoric
    01-02-2023 10:00 AM


    Re: The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
    See my other topic with this same subheading.
    BTW the US taking on debt at .5% or lower interest is now being shown to be brilliant.
    It is not brilliant. It is madness in a play performed by idiots imagining themselves to be creators.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 10:00 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 155 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 10:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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