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Author Topic:   The Changing World Order
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 207 of 302 (904111)
12-22-2022 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by PaulK
12-20-2022 3:13 PM


Introducing Peter Zeihan
Its fair game for you guys to criticize Beck. What have you to say about Peter Zeihan, however? He certainly seems smart enough and according to Wiki "is an American geopolitical analyst and author."
Audio Sample

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by PaulK, posted 12-20-2022 3:13 PM PaulK has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 208 of 302 (904112)
12-22-2022 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by PaulK
12-20-2022 3:13 PM


Candace Over AOC
Candace Owens is far smarter than Alexandria Occasio Cortez could ever hope to be. She is articulate, well-read, and blessedly conservative. You will have to show me where she ties in with the Great Reset conspiracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by PaulK, posted 12-20-2022 3:13 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by PaulK, posted 12-22-2022 6:09 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 211 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2022 10:34 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 233 by Theodoric, posted 12-31-2022 6:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 302 (904174)
12-22-2022 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Tanypteryx
12-22-2022 8:46 PM


Re: Candace Over AOC
on my worst day I'd wipe the floor with that socialist.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2022 9:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 12-23-2022 11:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 225 by DrJones*, posted 12-23-2022 11:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 217 of 302 (904182)
12-23-2022 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Tanypteryx
12-23-2022 1:12 AM


Re: Candace Over AOC
Listen, Damselfly in distress! My A1C has dropped to 8.0 from a high of 13.5. I am making a comeback.
My conservative friend urges me to listen to Jim Levin and Jordan Peterson. I respect Peterson but am unimpressed with Levin. The Peanut Gallery might say that I spout Conservative propaganda but all of that stuff that you quote vilifying Candace Owens is Liberal propaganda. Some critics (not I) say that you as a group are irritated that she is black and conservative since it goes against your socialist playbook. I have been accused of being a Republican and thus *not* a team player, but I am far from authoritarian.
Authoritarianism is more prevalent in the political Left than it is in the political Right. You guys wave your hands and claim that you *have* to take charge to save the planet and the people...from God knows what. You disguise your authoritarianism under the guise of empathy and altruism. My heart bleeds for you. Theodoric is going to say that I am avouding his argument, and he is right. Defending my assertions with *facts* is not my strong point, but I will try and come up with something.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 224 by Taq, posted 12-23-2022 11:17 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 227 by Theodoric, posted 12-23-2022 12:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 229 by Rahvin, posted 12-23-2022 1:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 218 of 302 (904183)
12-23-2022 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Theodoric
12-22-2022 9:02 PM


Re: Candace Over AOC
I'll start by looking them up. Better to ignore preconceived propaganda as much as I can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Theodoric, posted 12-22-2022 9:02 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by dwise1, posted 12-23-2022 2:28 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 302 (904194)
12-23-2022 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by dwise1
12-23-2022 2:28 AM


Tit For Tat
Good morning, David. I feel quite refreshed after a good nights sleep and my first order of business is to redirect this topic back into my original intent, which is/was economic changes to the world going forward rather than political changes. I am no politician nor would I ever want to be one. Now for the videos. You recommended this one to me, if I have my data right:
The Difference Between Socialism, Communism, and Marxism Explained by a Marxist I will in fact watch it from start to finish with an open mind.(Primarily because *you* recommended it. I trust you more than most peanut gallery members.
Here is mine. Will you watch it (or part of it) when you get the time? I value your opinion.
“We are in a debt trap” - Nouriel Roubini on 10 ‘megathreats’ to our world and how to stop them

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by dwise1, posted 12-23-2022 2:28 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 228 of 302 (904243)
12-23-2022 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by DrJones*
12-23-2022 11:51 AM


Re: Candace Over AOC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by DrJones*, posted 12-23-2022 11:51 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 302 (904550)
01-01-2023 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Theodoric
12-31-2022 11:16 PM


Re: Candace Over AOC
I can tell that you are a racist--against conservative white males. But of course you have an explanation for that, don't you? I myself admit to having certain prejudices in life, but have never seen myself as racist. I do prefer conservative women over liberal women. In general. Liberal women want to take over. (Prejudice much?)

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Theodoric, posted 12-31-2022 11:16 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Theodoric, posted 01-01-2023 2:16 AM Phat has replied
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 11:40 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 247 by DrJones*, posted 01-02-2023 7:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 237 of 302 (904551)
01-01-2023 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Theodoric
12-31-2022 6:32 PM


Re: Candace Over AOC
Why did you feel the need to compare her with Rep. Ocasio-Cortez? AOC had nothing to do with the conversation.
Curious why you would link them.
I felt and was trying to show that the conservatives have every bit as articulate and smart females as the Democrats do. Nothing more.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Theodoric, posted 12-31-2022 6:32 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Theodoric, posted 01-01-2023 2:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 302 (904554)
01-01-2023 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Theodoric
01-01-2023 2:16 AM


Re: Candace Over AOC
No, you made the charge. Explain to *me* why I am racist against God knows who and you are innocent of racism against me. I will be awaiting your claim of identity politics or some other term that I need to understand. At worst I might be guilty of sexism.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Theodoric, posted 01-01-2023 2:16 AM Theodoric has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 241 of 302 (904557)
01-01-2023 10:28 AM


Getting Back On Topic
This topic has wandered far off course. We have a New Year (2023! Woot) and we are still moving quickly towards a New World Order. I've read Rays book now, and can understand his main points. He is a Conservative White Male to be sure, and I discussed him with one of my many customers, who knew of him. We both agreed that he knew what he was talking about and that he had a large ego, as do many in his profession. But he does have a grasp of history from an economic perspective in ways that an ivy league academic who has never taken a risk in their life apart from deciding which argyle sweater to wear and which pipe to smoke.
I am unimpressed with dry academics. Book learning and real world experience differ greatly, and I'll take advice from a self made man who earned his money honestly rather than a stodgy egoist who gets paid by the government to lecture us endlessly on where the economy is going and why. The only difference that I have noticed between the intellectual elite and the conservative businessmen is not so much the degrees on the wall as it is the political affiliation. the businessmen are often either republican or libertarian (as is Ray). The stodgy intellectuals, such as Jerome Powell(Republican) and Janet Yellin(Democrat) likely never rolled their sleeves up in their lives. My Father grew up poo,worked hard on a farm, joined the navy and liberated the United States and the West from communist authoritarianism, and built houses during the post war boom.
And Jerome Powell? Jerome Hayden "Jay" Powell (born February 4, 1953) is an American attorney and investment banker who has served as the 16th chair of the Federal Reserve since 2018. Interestingly, he was appointed by Barack Obama and reappointed by Joe Biden. And Trump?
wiki writes:
One of Powell's first actions was to continue to raise US interest rates, as a response to the increasing strength of the US economy.[41][42] He also announced that the Fed would reduce its asset portfolio from US$4.5 trillion to a range of US$2.5–3 trillion over four years in a process called quantitative tightening.[43][44] This tight policy drew public criticism from President Trump, who expressed second thoughts about nominating Powell and said that the chair was too enthusiastic about raising rates.[45] Financial assets of all classes declined over 2018 and markets erupted in volatility in December. Powell abandoned quantitative tightening in early 2019, leading to a recovery in asset prices.[46] Trump continued to state, with increasing hostility, that Powell was not reacting quickly enough. As a trade war with China escalated over the summer of 2019, Trump called the Fed's policies "insane" and labelled Powell an "enemy."[47][48] He privately discussed with White House counsel the possibility of firing Powell, which Powell dismissed.[49] In an August interview, Trump said that he completely disagreed with Powell's approach and called for a sharp cut in interest rates.[50]
Of course Trump was no expert in finance, as he had been bankrupt numerous times...so it appeared that the Democrats knew what they were doing in appointing him. The jury is still out, however, on how effective the Fed policies are ultimately going to be. Dalio has his own explanations for the future course of the United States.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 11:57 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 252 by Rahvin, posted 01-10-2023 9:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 302 (904581)
01-02-2023 10:02 AM


The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
Lets think about money and wealth creation for a moment.
Dalio,page 24 writes:
I learned that the biggest thing affecting most people in most countries through time is the struggle to make, take,and distribute wealth and power, though they also have struggled over other things too, most importantly ideology and religion.
I also saw how, throughout time and in all countries,the people who have "the wealth" are the people who own the means of wealth production.
I remember years ago of another book I read called The Third Wave. In the book, futurist Alvin Toffler discusses the three great "waves" of civilized progress. Wave One was the agricultural revolution. Wave two was the industrial revolution. Wave three is the information and data technology amplified through computers and the internet.
Consider Dalios statement about people who have wealth also having and/or controlling the means of wealth production. Apply it to each of Toffler's Waves. Wave One? Feudalism and landowners. Wave Two? Industrial captains such as Carnagie and Rockefeller. Now think about Wave three.
We need to ask ourselves what wealth is and how it is now created through giants such as Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, and Apple. We then need to ask ourselves if fiat money itself is in the end a giant ponzi scheme. Hard assets such as gold used to back the digits. Could people be considered a hard asset? How about a durable asset? Finally, how about a stable asset???

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 10:33 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 249 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 10:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 255 of 302 (904912)
01-11-2023 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Rahvin
12-23-2022 1:47 PM


The 14 Characteristics of Fascism
Lets examine them, shall we? I'll add my own comments about each characteristic and whether I think it applies today or not.
For the record, I'm not too worried about Trump ever getting into office again. He barely got in the first time when nobody knew how nuts he was, and now that we the people know, how on earth could the guy get elected again? (If it were to happen, I would be convinced that the world was ending! )
Dr. Lawrence Britt:
1)Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
Phat writes:
I do not yet see excessive patriotism, but expect it to flair up once the economic reset takes full effect around the globe. We Americans do not want to take a back seat to anyone, yet as Ray Dalio succinctly points out in his book I read, the American Empire is on a decline and the Chinese Empire is rising up. More on this later.
2) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
I say guilty as charged. We have had a fear of attack from foreign terrorists and have treated them (and other immigrants) with less dignity than we should be doing.
3) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
I think that this will happen after the next global economic correction when the dollar loses its stranglehold on global financial dominance. The populists in particular will clamour for unity and patriotism as they see their country losing its global reserve currency advantage and they themselves lose buying power in the marketplace.
4) Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
I also see this as an ongoing concern.
Aren't we strong enough? Why is Eisenhower's military industrial complex still chewing up so much of our national budget?
5) Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
I may be bigoted in this area, but I strongly believe that gender is not open to how a person "feels" that their gender identification should be. If we showed more love to people struggling with identity issues and less judgement and scorn, the problem would not be so large (in my opinion)
6) Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
This is a huge problem for not only America but the world. AI(artificial intelligence) and social media are driving everyone towards global control and the rise of the antichrist. My main gripe about the progressives is that they unwittingly feed this system by rejecting conservative authoritarianism.
7) Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
I would say that fear is generated more through the news media and social media than it is used by our government.
8) Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
As a Christian, I see this in a different way than the secular masses, but agree that religion and politics should be kept seperate. I am not in favor of mandatry authoritarian oversight on such an issue, however.
9) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
I may be naive, but I dont see us as a fascist nation! We have too many checks and balances and a good 30% of our people are actally quite moderate and sane.
10) Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
I see this happening now as the company I work for is being sold off by a large private equity firm (Cerebus) and the union is fighting them toe to toe. I fear Cerbus will eventually win, for even if the merger is blocked, Cerbus will squeeze the profits out of our company before dumping it off on a buyer who will have to close it within a year. Cerbus is known for such pirating tactics.
11) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
Art and music will save us from a technocracy and the rise of big data.
12) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
While I don't want the police to be too powerful, I dont want them defunded either. We recently needed to hire security officers in our store who could actually stop people and force them to lay down part of the $3000.00 a day that is stolen from our store. I see this issue as a complex social issue. These shoplifters should not get the idea that their need outweighs our rights as a business. Thou shalt not steal! End of story.
13) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
This does not just occur with conservative leaders. This whole tendency to paint the Democrats as some sane and saintly party is a false narrative.
14) Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
We really need better control and oversight of the voting process.


The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Rahvin, posted 12-23-2022 1:47 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 01-11-2023 1:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 257 by Taq, posted 01-11-2023 1:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 258 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-11-2023 2:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 302 (904920)
01-11-2023 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
01-11-2023 1:21 PM


Re: The 14 Characteristics of Fascism
ringo writes:
The Weimar Republic had one of the best constitutions ever devised. The problem was that the people didn't respect the constitution or democracy in general.
The German people were saddled with war reparations debts from WW I that crippled their economy and snuffed out their ambitions. If we dont want it to happen again, we had best not tax the crap out of the working class in order to pay off the debts and expenses of the enormous social programs which our nation cannot afford.
We respect democracy as long as we the middle(working class) are not crippled through being expected to pay the bill that the rich wont pay and the poor cant pay.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 01-11-2023 1:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Taq, posted 01-11-2023 3:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 01-12-2023 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 260 of 302 (904921)
01-11-2023 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Theodoric
01-11-2023 9:47 AM


Re: Getting Back On Topic
Theo writes:
Phat likes to start inane discussions but quickly abandons them to move on to start another inane discussion. There are a number of comments I made that he has not replied to.
Thats because you ask questions that require me to do the research of a fucking term papers worth of data to address! Ive got things to do every day. I cant answer your incessant demands for evidence on topics that are obvious to the layman.
I will try and look some of your unanswered questions up, though. Do you recall any off the bat?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2023 9:47 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2023 3:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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