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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
ringo
Member (Idle past 517 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2641 of 2932 (903955)
12-19-2022 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 2640 by Kleinman
12-19-2022 11:33 AM


Kleinman writes:
Post some of your fake links that explain how drug resistance evolves and whay cancer treatments fail. And do it without making a sound.
If you're hearing sounds, they're in your head. The sounds of my keyboard do not reach anywhere near the border.
And your'e still evading the issue. Demonstrate your mathematical competency by explaining how A → B and A → C are not the same as B → C. If you don't understand that, you don't understand either evolution or basic mathematics.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2640 by Kleinman, posted 12-19-2022 11:33 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10187
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 2642 of 2932 (903957)
12-19-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2602 by Kleinman
12-16-2022 5:01 PM


Kleinman writes:
Pick up any introductory probability theory text and learn how to use the addition rule.
You fucking moron. I showed you my calculations with the addition rule and you thought the numbers represented number of generations and selection. You don't have an inkling what the addition rule is.
You really don't get it. When the carrying capacity is greater than the population size, the population can become more diverse. Descent with modification works faster when there is no competition. That's why the Kishony experiment gets five adaptive mutations in about 11 days while the Lenski experiment gets about 100 adaptive mutations in 30 years. You don't understand the thermodynamics. You spend too much time doing imaginary problems.
The stupid. It burns. There is no descent with modification when there is no competition. There was competition in the Kishony experiment. There was competition in the Lenski experiment. You don't even have a grasp on the basics of reality.
Try working more on real examples of evolution instead of your imaginary problems. You might figure out how biological evolution works.
I already did. You refuse to address them.
You couldn't figure out how descent with modification works for asexual replicators and now you can't figure out how descent with modification works for sexual replicators. You don't know how biological evolution works. You are ignorant of the physics and ignorant of the mathematics and you are a very slow learner.
You fucking moron. I just showed you multiple papers that describe how sexual reproduction changes descent with modification. Read the fucking papers.
You are very confused. You should read the following lines in my publication:
Your publication assumes there is only one possible beneficial mutation in any given genome. That is not true for all genomes. That's the part you can't seem to get through your thick fucking skull.
ou don't think that sexually reproducing populations have to get adaptive alleles with two or more beneficial mutations. You should publish that little bit of wisdom. No wonder you can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
If those two or more beneficial mutations occur in unlinked loci then they will be moved into the same genetic background, you fucking moron.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2602 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 5:01 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2643 by Kleinman, posted 12-19-2022 12:52 PM Taq has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2643 of 2932 (903966)
12-19-2022 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2642 by Taq
12-19-2022 12:04 PM


Kleinman:
Pick up any introductory probability theory text and learn how to use the addition rule.
Taq:
You fucking moron. I showed you my calculations with the addition rule and you thought the numbers represented number of generations and selection. You don't have an inkling what the addition rule is.

You finally learn some high school-level math (although very slowly) and you think you have proven UCD with a silly and mundane calculation.
Kleinman:
You really don't get it. When the carrying capacity is greater than the population size, the population can become more diverse. Descent with modification works faster when there is no competition. That's why the Kishony experiment gets five adaptive mutations in about 11 days while the Lenski experiment gets about 100 adaptive mutations in 30 years. You don't understand the thermodynamics. You spend too much time doing imaginary problems.
Taq:
The stupid. It burns. There is no descent with modification when there is no competition. There was competition in the Kishony experiment. There was competition in the Lenski experiment. You don't even have a grasp on the basics of reality.

Why doesn't this hot physicist and mathematician point out to us all which variants are fixed in the Kishony experiment? You won't because you are wrong. That's why you can't do the physics or mathematics of either experiment. You don't even know what Kishony's bacteria are competing for.
Kleinman:
You couldn't figure out how descent with modification works for asexual replicators and now you can't figure out how descent with modification works for sexual replicators. You don't know how biological evolution works. You are ignorant of the physics and ignorant of the mathematics and you are a very slow learner.
Taq:
You fucking moron. I just showed you multiple papers that describe how sexual reproduction changes descent with modification. Read the fucking papers.

All the papers are based on a single selection pressure and a constant environment. You are so confused, you think the savannah is a single selection pressure constant environment. You are very confused and a slow learner.
Kleinman:
You are very confused. You should read the following lines in my publication:
Taq:
Your publication assumes there is only one possible beneficial mutation in any given genome. That is not true for all genomes. That's the part you can't seem to get through your thick fucking skull.

You are so slow. Do you want me to post the quote from the paper again where I don't make that assumption? It won't help you because you are so confused and you are an inattentive reader.
Kleinman:
ou don't think that sexually reproducing populations have to get adaptive alleles with two or more beneficial mutations. You should publish that little bit of wisdom. No wonder you can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
Taq:
If those two or more beneficial mutations occur in unlinked loci then they will be moved into the same genetic background, you fucking moron.

Poor Taq, he is so confused. He doesn't understand that the way new alleles are generated is through descent with modification (mutations). Recombination can only shuffle existing alleles. Recombination won't accelerate the evolution of a beta-lactamase because all the mutations must occur in the same allele. Those five mutations take about (1/mutation rate) replications, and for E. coli, that's about 5 billion replications. And poor Taq thinks that it doesn't matter how many selection pressures exist in a population. No wonder he doesn't understand why 3 drug therapy works for the treatment of HIV and combination therapy works for the control of weeds and insects. In his confused world, there is only one selection pressure in a constant environment. Taq is so confused that he believes that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals but can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Taq should have studied more physics and mathematics than he did in his survey of physics course and survey of mathematics course. All it did was leave him very confused.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2642 by Taq, posted 12-19-2022 12:04 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2644 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-27-2022 5:04 AM Kleinman has replied

  
MrIntelligentDesign
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 248
Joined: 09-21-2015


Message 2644 of 2932 (904315)
12-27-2022 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 2643 by Kleinman
12-19-2022 12:52 PM


VERY GOOD post!
On the other thread, in Evolution vs Intelligent Design, those supporters of Evolution cannot answer challenges on the topic of intelligence.
Kleinman, I read your article on probability of mutation in a given population. My name is Edgar Alberto Postrado, you can google me in the internet. I am the discoverer of intelligence.
Will you reconsider making a new probability, in where the limit will be the limit of intelligence?
Normally, the maximum Natural probability is 1, but the maximum limit of intelligence that I discovered is 3, and the minimum limit
of intelligence is 1.5. Through this, we can create new Probability Calculation, I called it "Intelligence Probability, iProb".
Will you help me formulate and derive formulas for this new probability Calculation, and let us submit the findings to any Mathematical journal?
The new Intelligent Design is making or creating new Probability calculation. I think that it will revolutionize the whole world, mathematics and science. And be very good in the topic of IA and engineering and many application, plus, falsifying Evolution.
I will explain to you how we can use that in real life, especially, in falsifying Evolution.
Please, answer me and let us change the world and science.
Let us kick out Evolution in science, and replace Evolution with my new theory,
Biological Interrelation, BiTs.
Hoping to join forces with you to uproot Evolution and help science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2643 by Kleinman, posted 12-19-2022 12:52 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2645 by Kleinman, posted 12-27-2022 9:22 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2645 of 2932 (904331)
12-27-2022 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 2644 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-27-2022 5:04 AM


MrIntelligentDesign:
VERY GOOD post!

On the other thread, in Evolution vs Intelligent Design, those supporters of Evolution cannot answer challenges on the topic of intelligence.

Kleinman, I read your article on probability of mutation in a given population. My name is Edgar Alberto Postrado, you can google me in the internet. I am the discoverer of intelligence.

Will you reconsider making a new probability, in where the limit will be the limit of intelligence?

Normally, the maximum Natural probability is 1, but the maximum limit of intelligence that I discovered is 3, and the minimum limit
of intelligence is 1.5. Through this, we can create new Probability Calculation, I called it "Intelligence Probability, iProb".

Will you help me formulate and derive formulas for this new probability Calculation, and let us submit the findings to any Mathematical journal?
Thank you for your post. Let me make this clear. I do believe that evolution happens. In my medical practice, I have to deal with drug resistant infections which are caused by evolution. What I do think is that the idea of universal common descent is mathematically irrational nonsense and experiments and data shows that. What experiments and empirical data show is that adaptive evolution is much less likely to occur if the population has to evolve to multiple selection pressures simultaneously. This is due to the multiplication rule of probabilities, a subject that biologists like Taq and Tanypteryx have little or no training or experience. That's why they can't explain the evolution of drug resistance or why cancer treatments fail.
The key to solving any probability problem is identifying the random trial (experiment). There are simple examples that help teach how to do that, such as tossing a coin, rolling dice, or drawing cards. For descent with modification, recognizing that one of the random trials is a replication and the possible outcomes are does a beneficial mutation occur or not. A mutation is also a random trial. A base substitution, deletion, insertion, or any other error can occur at that site. Then, it is a matter of applying the theorems and axioms of probability theory to derive the probability equations. The same kind of process can be used to derive the probability equation that governs recombination. You must then understand how to combine these equations with the deterministic components of evolution (for example, biological competition) to correctly model an evolutionary process. This is something that goes way over the heads of biologists. That's why they are still muddling around trying to model simple evolutionary examples such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
MrIntelligentDesign:
The new Intelligent Design is making or creating new Probability calculation. I think that it will revolutionize the whole world, mathematics and science. And be very good in the topic of IA and engineering and many application, plus, falsifying Evolution.

I will explain to you how we can use that in real life, especially, in falsifying Evolution.

Please, answer me and let us change the world and science.
Let us kick out Evolution in science, and replace Evolution with my new theory,
Biological Interrelation, BiTs.

Hoping to join forces with you to uproot Evolution and help science.
Again, I am not trying to "uproot Evolution". Evolution does happen in biological populations. The Theory of Evolution has a major flaw, the concept of universal common descent. Descent with modification, recombination, and biological competition does happen. Still, the rate of adaptive evolution depends on many factors including population size, mutation rate, number of selection conditions, and carrying capacity of the environment... There is plenty of evidence of Intelligent Design that biologists ignore because of their bias. You only have to look at the microanatomy of a cell to see this. You have molecular pumps, valves, motors, chemical sequences to take energy molecules and break them down for fuel, etc. Michael Behe has pointed this out with his study of bacterial flagella. The problem is trying to formulate a mathematical explanation for this. Is it even a probability problem? What is the random trial? How do you mathematically model Creation?
Evolution is an ongoing process that can be mathematically modeled and biologists like Taq and Tanpteryx are not trained as scientists and do a terrible job with their storytelling. That is why they are failures at describing the simplest examples of evolution. That is why the concept of universal common descent will go the way of phrenology from the field of biology. It just takes a little time for these zealots to learn the mathematical and physical facts of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2644 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-27-2022 5:04 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2646 by xongsmith, posted 12-27-2022 2:30 PM Kleinman has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(1)
Message 2646 of 2932 (904363)
12-27-2022 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2645 by Kleinman
12-27-2022 9:22 AM


probabilty?
My questions to you:
Are you aware of the complexity of the RNA-DNA system of life as we know it on this planet?
What are the odds that EVERY SINGLE LIFEFORM found on this planet uses this exact same RNA-DNA system?
In order for your conjecture to be correct, at least two (or more) separated mixtures of organic pre-life molecules had to come together into a lifeform and then turn out to have recreated this exact same RNA-DNA system.
Isn't it far more likely that the first such lifeform gave rise to all descendant lifeforms that we know about so far on this planet?
Don't flaunt your ignorance of probability theory without some real cold objective evidence.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2645 by Kleinman, posted 12-27-2022 9:22 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2647 by Kleinman, posted 12-27-2022 3:37 PM xongsmith has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2647 of 2932 (904364)
12-27-2022 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2646 by xongsmith
12-27-2022 2:30 PM


Re: probabilty?
xongsmith:
My questions to you:
When stupid asses like you can explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail, perhaps you will know something about biological evolution. Until then, answer your own stupid questions. You can't explain the simplest examples of biological evolution and it harms people. That's what we get with your stupidity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2646 by xongsmith, posted 12-27-2022 2:30 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2648 by xongsmith, posted 12-27-2022 5:17 PM Kleinman has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(1)
Message 2648 of 2932 (904365)
12-27-2022 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2647 by Kleinman
12-27-2022 3:37 PM


Re: probabilty?
that is direct observation of evolution in action.
millions of genetic copying inexactly leads to a major variation in the population and those that the drug treatment fails to kill get live on to see another day-minute.
obviously.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2647 by Kleinman, posted 12-27-2022 3:37 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2649 by Kleinman, posted 12-27-2022 5:32 PM xongsmith has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2649 of 2932 (904366)
12-27-2022 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2648 by xongsmith
12-27-2022 5:17 PM


Re: probabilty?
xongsmith:
that is direct observation of evolution in action.

millions of genetic copying inexactly leads to a major variation in the population and those that the drug treatment fails to kill get live on to see another day-minute.

obviously.
It sure is direct observation and it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in a single selection pressure environment. That is what you call a "major variation". Why doesn't Kishony's experiment work when he tried two drugs simultaneously? Why does three-drug therapy work for the treatment of HIV when the virus can rapidly evolve resistance to one drug in a week? Isn't it about time you learned something more about biological evolution than your sloppy "live on to see another day-minute" explanation? Or are you one of those biologists that got a social promotion in your survey of mathematics course?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2648 by xongsmith, posted 12-27-2022 5:17 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2650 by xongsmith, posted 12-27-2022 8:21 PM Kleinman has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


Message 2650 of 2932 (904371)
12-27-2022 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2649 by Kleinman
12-27-2022 5:32 PM


Re: probabilty?
Kleinman continues:
it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in a single selection pressure environment
did you know that there are more billions of lifeforms in your single body than there are people on the earth? so we got billions of replication attempts every minute already. and most are very hard to distinguish
yes, i admit to not being a biologist.
but what are your credentials?
where are your published works?
i think you are a Crackpot. You are sophmorically trying to be the Great Debunker and FAILING. You funny!

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2649 by Kleinman, posted 12-27-2022 5:32 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2651 by Kleinman, posted 12-28-2022 11:44 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2651 of 2932 (904386)
12-28-2022 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 2650 by xongsmith
12-27-2022 8:21 PM


Re: probabilty?
Kleinman:
it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in a single selection pressure environment
xongsmith:
did you know that there are more billions of lifeforms in your single body than there are people on the earth? so we got billions of replication attempts every minute already. and most are very hard to distinguish

yes, i admit to not being a biologist.
but what are your credentials?
where are your published works?

i think you are a Crackpot. You are sophmorically trying to be the Great Debunker and FAILING. You funny!

Another amateur that only knows what some mathematically incompetent biologist tells him. And that biologist can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
Here are a couple of publications that the amateur hasn't read.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
You won't find any publications like these done by biologists. They weren't taught this kind of mathematics or physics in their survey of mathematics and survey of physics courses.
So tell us, amateur, how do reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals? Did the biologists that told you this also explain to you how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail? You bought their story hook, line, and sinker! You are a naive sucker.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2650 by xongsmith, posted 12-27-2022 8:21 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2652 by Capt Stormfield, posted 12-28-2022 1:28 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2653 by AZPaul3, posted 12-28-2022 2:12 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 429
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 2652 of 2932 (904389)
12-28-2022 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2651 by Kleinman
12-28-2022 11:44 AM


Re: probabilty?
Hey, I read the first paper and the take away seems to be that it requires teams of scientists designing combination drug therapies to stop a virus from evolving.
You may be missing the forest for the mathematical trees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2651 by Kleinman, posted 12-28-2022 11:44 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2654 by Kleinman, posted 12-28-2022 2:22 PM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 2653 of 2932 (904390)
12-28-2022 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2651 by Kleinman
12-28-2022 11:44 AM


Re: probabilty?
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
CAUTION: The listed papers above are considered to be bogus, filled with incorrect math and inappropriate conclusions.

The reader is advised to disregard their content as well as their author.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2651 by Kleinman, posted 12-28-2022 11:44 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2655 by Kleinman, posted 12-28-2022 2:31 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2654 of 2932 (904391)
12-28-2022 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2652 by Capt Stormfield
12-28-2022 1:28 PM


Re: probabilty?
Capt Stormfield:
Hey, I read the first paper and the take away seems to be that it requires teams of scientists designing combination drug therapies to stop a virus from evolving.

You may be missing the forest for the mathematical trees.
Finding a target that will impair the reproduction of a virus without affecting the host is challenging but not as challenging as finding targets in a cancer cell that will not affect the host. But the mathematics is clear, it is much more difficult to adapt (evolve) to two or more simultaneous selection pressures than to a single selection pressure. It all has to do with more instances of the multiplication rule being applied to the population. That is the forest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2652 by Capt Stormfield, posted 12-28-2022 1:28 PM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2655 of 2932 (904393)
12-28-2022 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2653 by AZPaul3
12-28-2022 2:12 PM


Re: probabilty?
Kleinman:
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
AZPaul3:
CAUTION: The listed papers above are considered to be bogus, filled with incorrect math and inappropriate conclusions.

The reader is advised to disregard their content as well as their author.

AZPaul3 is trying out for the role of the monkey in the remake of the Scopes Monkey trial. His understanding of the physics and mathematics of biological evolution makes him a shoo-in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2653 by AZPaul3, posted 12-28-2022 2:12 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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