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Author Topic:   Popular Vote vs Electoral College
Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
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(3)
Message 2 of 118 (903622)
12-14-2022 1:51 PM


State Should Not Determine Power of Vote
First, the electoral college has its roots in slavery.
"There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections."
--James Madison
Read more here: The Electoral College’s Racist Origins | Brennan Center for Justice
In other words, the population in the North and South were about equal, but 1/3 of the population in the South were slaves who weren't allowed to vote. This meant the North could dominate presidential elections. The solution was the electoral college which gave the South more votes than they would otherwise have. There was also the 3/5ths compromise where blacks were counted as 3/5ths of a person when doling out congressional seats.
So right from the start, one of the main purposes of the electoral college is gone. The other reason that was given is that the electoral college served as a check on a wildly popular but corrupt candidate. Obviously, that hasn't worked.
The second reason is just plain fairness. Right now, the power of someone's vote in the presidential election depends on where they live. A vote cast in Wyoming carries more weight than a vote cast in California due to the 2 Senate seats given to each state regardless of population. That's just not fair. All of our votes should count the same for an office that applies equally to the whole nation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 3:05 PM Taq has replied
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:20 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(6)
Message 4 of 118 (903627)
12-14-2022 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-14-2022 3:05 PM


Re: State Should Not Determine Power of Vote
Phat writes:
Granted fairness is an issue. Critics say, however, that without the electoral college Democrats would ain in perpetuity. And their candidates are not always the best choice.
By critics, do you mean Republicans?
The whole point of an election is to determine who is the best choice. If Republicans want to win a popular vote then they should adopt policies that are attractive to a majority of people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 3:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 3:16 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(4)
Message 7 of 118 (903631)
12-14-2022 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
12-14-2022 3:16 PM


Re: State Should Not Determine Power of Vote
Phat writes:
Perhaps, but often their constituency consists of businessmen and shop owners, which will never be a majority over the public at large.
What???? Do you think Republican voters are only business owners?
Using the same logic, Democrats should lose every election because their constituency consists of black voters which will never be a majority.
If you want to argue that Republican policies only benefit a minority of citizens, then I might agree.

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Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(4)
Message 8 of 118 (903632)
12-14-2022 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tanypteryx
12-14-2022 3:18 PM


Re: State Should Not Determine Power of Vote
Tanypteryx writes:
Are you unaware of all those Republican assholes in Congress who openly tried to steal the 2020 presidential election?
It is disturbingly reflected in Phat's own proclamation that we should have voting procedures where only the Republican's preferred candidate wins.
It is rather sad to see a political party that only thinks in terms of power instead of democracy. Someone who supports democracy would see a loss as a reason to rethink their policies and rhetoric. Not Republicans. Their response is to double down on losing ideas and try to skirt the rules to stay in power. It's the same type of strategy that fascist parties used in the run up to WW II. Jan 6 was a page right out of the fascist playbook.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 12-14-2022 4:58 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:08 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 13 of 118 (903640)
12-14-2022 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:20 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Phat writes:
Except that one cannot divide the nation by population centers and then apply the vote equally to the whole nation.
What are you talking about?
Did anyone know that 80% of the population is east of Kansa, 20% is west of Kansa, and of that 12% is California? Our Rancher is grossly underrepresented.
Why should your vote count differently based on your position relative to Kansas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:30 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 14 of 118 (903641)
12-14-2022 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:08 PM


Re: A Rancher vs UCLA Berkley
Phat writes:
Voting procedures should never favor only one party. If I am a rancher in Wyoming, for example, why must I bow to the demands of a bunch of elitist whiners in Berkley who think that selling steak is cruel to animals, furs should be banned on women, and I should be taxed higher just so a bunch of homeless people can get free food rather than buying the same food that was earlier protested over?
Why would a popular vote favor Democrats over Republicans?
Now you are asking why we even have a democracy.
I would argue that both political parties think in terms of power.
We have just witnessed a political party that openly discussed throwing democracy away. The leader of the Republican Party suggested that we throw the constitution out so he could be named president. Nowhere do we see Democrats behaving like this. There is no comparison here.
So does the electoral college have anything to do with the old debate regarding whether the US is a Republic or a Democracy? Or both? Or neither?
It does. It has to do with our country starting out as a mixture of slave and non-slave states, and the compromises that had to be struck in order to have a republic of these types of states.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:34 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 20 of 118 (903647)
12-14-2022 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 4:14 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
A feature of the electoral college is that, without it, the smaller states have no way to have their voices heard in the republic. The smaller less populated states would see their state and local interests lost to the larger populations and the interests of the larger states. Democracy is fine and all but being able to participate is even better.
That's taken care of in the Senate.
A feature of the electoral college is that, without it, the smaller states have no way to have their voices heard in the republic. The smaller less populated states would see their state and local interests lost to the larger populations and the interests of the larger states. Democracy is fine and all but being able to participate is even better.
That's not what I see. Presidential candidates are much more likely to go to Michigan than they are California or Texas. What matters is being a swing state. That's where you get the attention.
If its a national race then every vote counts the same, so converting a vote anywhere is useful. I live in a small deep red state, so no one campaigns in my state. Republicans count it as a sure win, and Democrats see no reason to even try to get any votes. If it were a popular vote then they very well may campaign here because my vote for a Democrat would actually matter.
Deciding by popular vote and its appeal to democracy sounds wonderful but, today, in this political setup, it would lead to a situation where 3/4 of the land mass of this nation, and its lesser population, is effectively disenfranchised from the vote.
I don't see why having more dirt around you entitles you to more voting power.
The way to solve it is easy. Award electoral votes based on the popular vote. To mandate that at the federal level will take a constitutional amendment. That only leaves a voluntary effort on the parts of the various state legislatures.
From what I have seen, that is getting closer to happening.
"The National Popular Vote bill has been enacted by 16 jurisdictions possessing 195 electoral votes, including 4 small states (DE, HI, RI, VT), 8 medium-sized states (CO, CT, MD, MA, NJ, NM, OR, WA), 3 big states (CA, IL, NY), and the District of Columbia. The bill will take effect when enacted by states with 75 more electoral votes. "
Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote | National Popular Vote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 4:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 7:15 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 22 of 118 (903649)
12-14-2022 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:40 PM


Re: A Rancher vs UCLA Berkley
Phat writes:
Don't you see how authoritarian that sounds?
No, I don't. Nearly every country has taxes. One of the few exceptions I can think of is Monaco.
The basic function of a country is to collect taxes in one way or another.
My ranch is every bit as important to me and the welfare of my workers as Democracy is to the homeless folks who need a place to squat. Hypothetically, just because 5 friends always get together and vote and 4 of them vote for the same thing does not mean that the fifth guy always has to turn the other cheek.
So you are against the concept of democracy. Got it.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 23 of 118 (903650)
12-14-2022 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:34 PM


Re: The Trump Factor. A Bull In A China Shop
Phat writes:
Trump ruined a lot of things. Some argue, however, that he kept us from sliding down the slope closer to China.
What in the world are you talking about???

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 24 of 118 (903651)
12-14-2022 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
12-14-2022 5:30 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Phat writes:
Because population centers by nature have different interests than farms and ranches. voting should not be steamrolled based on emotional ideology.
So millions of people in cities should bow down to the wishes of a few thousand farmers? How is that fair?
And why wouldn't city folk support farmers?
Unless you propose that the government take his ranch and divvy it up to a bunch of homeless people at taxpayer expense.
No one is proposing that. Where are you pulling this from? No Democrat is calling for taking peoples' land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 5:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-14-2022 6:19 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 26 of 118 (903655)
12-14-2022 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
12-14-2022 6:08 PM


Re: A Brief Rabbit Trail:Gold and Political Ideology
Phat writes:
Conservatives may be selfish heartless bastards, but they know the value of a dollar.
Liberals seem to think that humans determine the value of the dollar and that if only we squeezed our eyes shut real tight and wished upon a star, there would be enough money for everybody!
What does this have to do with Popular v. Electoral College?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 28 of 118 (903657)
12-14-2022 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
12-14-2022 6:19 PM


Re: Why do they call it Partisan Politics?
Phat writes:
According to Alexa, the CCP has 96 million members. How is it fair that a billion point four Chinese bow down to 96 million CCP members?
We are talking about elections in the US, not China.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 41 of 118 (903693)
12-15-2022 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 7:15 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
To address the imbalance in voting strength the smaller states required both the Senate membership and the electoral college. Else, no deal.
The issue was the Southern states worrying that the Northern states would outlaw slavery.
There is also a problem in just ditching the EC. Without the dynamics of the EC, meaning you are going by popular vote alone, politicians have no reason to go to Michigan, or Texas or anywhere outside the voting blocks of the two narrow strips along the coasts.
Why wouldn't they go to wherever the voters are? A Democratic vote picked up in deep red Utah would count as much as a vote anywhere else.
Unless you live on the coast ... no it won't ... and it doesn't matter if you vote Dem or Rep, it won't count.
It would count a lot more than it does now as a Democratic voter in a deep red state. Right now, it counts for bupkus. If there were a popular vote, my vote would count just as much as someone voting in NY or LA.
Because democracy must always be tempered with minority protections.
Voting Republican is a not a minority.
Without something like the EC, if going strictly by popular vote, then my sister's vote in New York City will help determine the election while your vote in Dallas does not even need to be registered as it will have no effect on the outcome.
That's false. Those votes count the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 7:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2022 6:01 PM Taq has replied
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2022 11:51 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 42 of 118 (903695)
12-15-2022 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
12-14-2022 9:51 PM


Re: Proportional EC
AZPaul3 writes:
I was talking about 'by population', I think? The two coasts of the United States, within 100 miles of each coast, if I have my numbers right, is where a super majority of people (voters) live.

If the majority of those voters go for Sam then Sam will be president regardless of any votes in South Dakota. North Dakotans, South Dakotans and everyone south to the Mexico border have no say, no voice, in the presidential vote.
They have the same voice as each of those people along the coast.
For appearances sake all votes cast are indeed to be counted across the country and a winner declared on the national totals and no one would care what regions the votes came from. But when a politician goes to ply his trade and do his influence pork barrel thing looking for votes, he can save a lot of money and time schmoozing the coastlines without any concerns for the interior.
Or you can schmooze both urban and rural areas and win an election.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2022 9:51 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 48 of 118 (903715)
12-15-2022 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
12-15-2022 10:25 AM


Re: Another Rabbit Trail: What are Populists?
Phat writes:
My conservative friend, (he loves Ben Shapiro) claims that "we" (see? He uses that word too! )need to kick the elitists out of political office.
Ben Shapiro is part of the elite, so that's a big miss right away. Trump is the very definition of the elite, and I would hazard a guess he is a big fan. What they mean when they say "elitists" is Democrats.
Being from a small state, I do see one big issue that is only magnified as you move up the political ladder. You have to be relatively rich to be a politician. You can't be a median income earner with two kids and a mortgage who is barely making it paycheck to paycheck. In my state, the state legislature meets just 3 months a year. They do get paid a small salary while in session, but nothing outside of session. It is very difficult for a regular person to have a job where they are gone 3-4 months out of the year, and also have the time to make meetings outside of session.
State legislatures are usually where politicians start. Once they get some experience at the state level they may try for a federal seat (rep/senator). That takes a lot of time away from a job.
The issue with "elitists" in politics is that the job selects for elitists. It is very difficult for a regular Joe or Jane to even attempt to run for office.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 10:25 AM Phat has not replied

  
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