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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 1291 of 1429 (903652)
12-14-2022 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Dredge
12-14-2022 8:37 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredgings:
medical science will make use of the mechanism regardless.
I'd much rather it happen in my lifetime than wasting 100's of years barking down the wrong tree.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2022 8:37 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1307 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2022 8:13 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1292 of 1429 (903664)
12-14-2022 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1179 by nwr
11-28-2022 4:49 PM


Re: UCD: Gift From God
Dredge writes:
Oh yeah ... if no one believed in UCD, no drugs or vaccines could be developed.
nwr writes:
I'm old enough to remember an earlier time. Yes, there were still drugs back then, but most of them didn't work at all well. To find new drugs, they would test exotic plants to see if they had any useful pharmaceutical effects.
Yep, no doubt about it ... no one thought of deriving pharmaceutical effects from plants until they "discovered" that humans and potatoes evolved from the same organism. LOL!!
And yes, there were vaccines back then, but there were few of them. There was no vaccine for measles, for mumps, for chicken pox, for polio. Childhood disease was a more serious problem than it is today.
Many of the newer more effective drugs and vaccines that we have today are due to research into biology and biochemistry which started as a study of evolution and inheritance.
Which drug or vaccine could not have been developed if no one had "discovered" that humans and potatoes evolved from the same organism (UCD)? ... and then explain why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1179 by nwr, posted 11-28-2022 4:49 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by nwr, posted 12-14-2022 10:34 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1299 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 9:21 AM Dredge has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 1293 of 1429 (903665)
12-14-2022 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Dredge
12-14-2022 10:28 PM


Re: UCD: Gift From God
Trolls will troll.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2022 10:28 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1296 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2022 4:01 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 1294 of 1429 (903666)
12-15-2022 12:52 AM


Provora - is this what Dredge wants to see?
well, well, well:
New branch on Tree of Life contains organisms unlike any others on Earth
“In the taxonomy of living organisms, we often use the gene ‘18S rRNA’ to describe genetic difference,” said Dr. Denis Tikhonenkov, first author of the study. “For example, humans differ from guinea pigs in this gene by only six nucleotides. We were surprised to find that these predatory microbes differ by 170 to 180 nucleotides in the 18S rRNA gene from every other living thing on Earth. It became clear that we had discovered something completely new and amazing.”
so it appears to still use the RNA-DNA system originated by the UCD.
oh well....

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


Replies to this message:
 Message 1384 by Dredge, posted 12-22-2022 7:37 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1295 of 1429 (903677)
12-15-2022 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1179 by nwr
11-28-2022 4:49 PM


Re: UCD: Gift From God
Dredge writes:
Oh yeah ... if no one believed in UCD, no drugs or vaccines could be developed.
nwr writes:
I'm old enough to remember an earlier time. Yes, there were still drugs back then, but most of them didn't work at all well. To find new drugs, they would test exotic plants to see if they had any useful pharmaceutical effects.
Mankind has been using "exotic plants" for their "pharmaceutical effects" for at least 4000 years.
Gee, I wonder how we did that without the theory of UCD. LOL!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1179 by nwr, posted 11-28-2022 4:49 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1297 by xongsmith, posted 12-15-2022 4:01 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1296 of 1429 (903679)
12-15-2022 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1293 by nwr
12-14-2022 10:34 PM


Re: UCD: Gift From God
So
nwr writes:
Trolls will troll.
is the best answer you could come up with in response to my question in Message 1292 ...
"Which drug or vaccine could not have been developed if no one had "discovered" that humans and potatoes evolved from the same organism (UCD)? ... and then explain why."
Is it my imagination, or are you a genius?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by nwr, posted 12-14-2022 10:34 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 1297 of 1429 (903680)
12-15-2022 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1295 by Dredge
12-15-2022 3:48 AM


Re: UCD: Gift From God
Dredgings:
Mankind has been using "exotic plants" for their "pharmaceutical effects" for at least 4000 years.

Gee, I wonder how we did that without the theory of UCD. LOL!!
...and none of them worked very well. A lot of stoned out people still sick.
I don't want to wait another 4000 years, Dredge. Instead I will trust the professionals using the RNA-DNA relatedness from UCD.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1295 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2022 3:48 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1298 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 9:09 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1298 of 1429 (903681)
12-15-2022 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1297 by xongsmith
12-15-2022 4:01 AM


Re: UCD: Gift From God
Good point, Xongsmith. I trust Modern Pharma for some things and not so much for others, but overall I realize that the onus for good health is my responsibility. I won't go to the natural foods store and buy willow bark. I will simply take a couple of aspirin. I trust the process and inventiveness of humanity to a substantial degree. Of course, having been given intelligence by (I believe) my Creator, I only gain wisdom through surrender, (AA concepts) self discipline,meditation, and mindfulness.
There is a time for a prayer group agreeing that a person receive full healing. And there is a time to trust science to help with that persons healing.
I could attend Mass 7 days a week and immerse myself in the church. Trusting God (as I understand Him) is an important part of my life. But so is helping others. So is expressing myself thoroughly and honestly in this Forum. Yes, we love to call each other names, but a core part of this Forums mission and purpose starts with a level of respect for the intelligence of our opponent.(Yes, we *do* play chess, even if it is political chess, E versus C chess, or anecdotal chess. We Kibbutz here. Ringo put it well.)
I rant and rave about homeless people, for example. But when I go to work at my job, I am one block from the corridor of homelessness that plagues Denver, and I can honestly say that I love those people more than I hate them. Our debate can be broken down quite simply.
Dredge writes:
Which drug or vaccine could not have been developed if no one had "discovered" that humans and potatoes evolved from the same organism (UCD)?
Are you implying that we could have lived like Quakers,been blissfully unaware and unconcerned about the discipline of scientific progress, and still progress as a species towards developing new drugs, new chemo treatments (for example) and new methods of understanding through prayer meetings and a simplified lifestyle alone? The majority of us chose not to. I wonder why that is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by xongsmith, posted 12-15-2022 4:01 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1299 of 1429 (903682)
12-15-2022 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Dredge
12-14-2022 10:28 PM


On A Similar Note...
Dredge writes:
Which drug or vaccine could not have been developed if no one had "discovered" that humans and potatoes evolved from the same organism (UCD)? ... and then explain why.
First of all, the discipline of understanding another mans theory is the exact process through which vaccines,Chemotherapy treatments, even over the counter cough medicines were developed. You are a good Catholic, right? Explain any advances in the field of medicine among the clergy and laymen of the RCC that successfully moved forward in our (human) "fight" against childhood diseases or cancer treatments that willfully avoided the mainstream consensus at oh I dunno...UCLA or the Mayo clinic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2022 10:28 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by ringo, posted 12-15-2022 11:35 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1386 by Dredge, posted 12-22-2022 8:10 AM Phat has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1300 of 1429 (903685)
12-15-2022 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1181 by AZPaul3
11-29-2022 8:58 AM


Re: UCD evidence
APauling writes:
Not the scientists planning the vaccines nor the chemists making it.
They don't need your silly bullshit to know the vaccines work and why.
I think what you're trying to say is, scientists don't need the theory of UCD to know how and why vaccines work. In which case, I agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1181 by AZPaul3, posted 11-29-2022 8:58 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1303 by Taq, posted 12-15-2022 11:39 AM Dredge has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1301 of 1429 (903697)
12-15-2022 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Dredge
12-14-2022 8:28 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
It doesn't make any difference to medicine what the "relatedness of all species" is due to, so the "due to common descent" part of your comment is superfluous and irrelevant.
I can't believe that you don't understand: "relatedness of all species" is exactly the same as common descent. If you concede that all species are related, then you HAVE to accept common descent. You DO, in fact, accept common descent.
Dredge writes:
You keep insisting that UCD is useful to medicine, but you can't cite even one example to support your claim.
Cow and pig insulin.
Dredge writes:
I've pointed out that glaring flaw to you many time...
And you've been wrong every time.
Dredge writes:
I'm sorry, APauling, but I've no choice but to conclude that you're a fool or you're mentally ill.
And we have no choice but to conclude that your self-admitted IQ of 9 in no way qualifies you to reach that conclusion.
Dredge writes:
Secondly, UCD is merely a theory - you can't prove that it's "reality".
1. "Merely a theory" - i.e. merely the most complete explanation we have - is a nonsensical statement.
2. Science doesn't attempt to "prove" anything.
3. You're demonstrating that you have no ability to learn anything.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1282 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2022 8:28 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1385 by Dredge, posted 12-22-2022 8:00 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1302 of 1429 (903698)
12-15-2022 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1299 by Phat
12-15-2022 9:21 AM


Re: On A Similar Note...
Phat writes:
Explain any advances in the field of medicine among the clergy and laymen of the RCC that successfully moved forward in our (human) "fight" against childhood diseases or cancer treatments that willfully avoided the mainstream consensus at oh I dunno...UCLA or the Mayo clinic?
I've asked him that question several times. He won't/can't answer it. He doesn't even dare to think about it.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by Phat, posted 12-15-2022 9:21 AM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 1303 of 1429 (903699)
12-15-2022 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Dredge
12-15-2022 9:47 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
I think what you're trying to say is, scientists don't need the theory of UCD to know how and why vaccines work.
Scientists used UCD to figure out how vaccines work, as I have already shown you. It doesn't matter if you think they needed it or not. They used UCD.
quote:
RNA sensors such as Toll-like receptor 7 (TLR7) and MDA5 are triggered by the mRNA vaccines, and TLR9 is the major double-stranded DNA sensor for the AdV vaccine. The resultant activated DCs present antigen and co-stimulatory molecules to S protein-specific naive T cells, which become activated and differentiated into effector cells to form cytotoxic T lymphocytes or helper T cells. T follicular helper (TFH) cells help S protein-specific B cells to differentiate into antibody-secreting plasma cells and promote the production of high affinity anti-S protein antibodies.
COVID-19 vaccines: modes of immune activation and future challenges | Nature Reviews Immunology
Our knowledge of toll-like receptors came from applying UCD.
quote:
Two and a half years later, the idea of innate immunity in humans and its connections to defense in invertebrates had already taken hold. At least 150 scientists gathered at a National Academy of Sciences colloquium in Irvine, Calif., entitled “Virulence and Defense in Host-Pathogen Interactions: Common Features between Plants and Animals.” At the meeting, 12 researchers specifically discussed their work on toll in flies and “toll-like receptors”—as the mammalian versions are now known—and other aspects of innate immunity. Two dozen other scientists focused on patterns common to the insect and mammalian pathogens.

By March 2001, scientists had found 10 other human toll-like receptors, including toll-like receptor 2, which Shizuo Akira, MD, and colleagues at Osaka University showed responds to a particular sequence found in bacterial DNA but not in mammalian DNA. To get an idea of how fast the field has grown since 1997, a literature search for the term “toll-like receptor” in 2022 brought up more than 56,000 abstracts.

The evolutionary connections also awed researchers, as they eventually found toll-like molecules in worms, mice, even plants. Plant geneticist Santosh Misra, PhD, and colleagues at the University of Victoria in British Columbia genetically engineered antimicrobial peptides into potatoes to get the crops to withstand fungal infection. Protective compounds produced by plants could conceivably work as new classes of antibiotics in people as well.
The History Behind The Discovery of toll-like Receptors < Yale School of Medicine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2022 9:47 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1388 by Dredge, posted 12-22-2022 8:44 AM Taq has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1304 of 1429 (903701)
12-15-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1183 by xongsmith
11-29-2022 1:23 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
If so, that means that - whether scientists accepted the theory of UCD or not - they would still have been able to develop the vaccine in the first place, doesn't it?
wrongsmith writes:
yes, once in a triple blue moon on Friday the 13th, in some unlikely year,
they could stumble into a vaccine ...
​but they'd have to be looking for it. -- and if they didn't accept UCD,
then their method of looking for it would still have to be consistent with
the UCD RNA-DNA mechanism, using lab equipment and procedures that
just so happened to not destroy any steps along the multi-year way.
What the hell are you talking about, wrongsmith?
Explain why scientists need the theory of UCD to develop vaccines ... and try to keep it sane.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1183 by xongsmith, posted 11-29-2022 1:23 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by Taq, posted 12-15-2022 1:39 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1311 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2022 3:15 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 1305 of 1429 (903708)
12-15-2022 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1304 by Dredge
12-15-2022 11:50 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Explain why scientists need the theory of UCD to develop vaccines ... and try to keep it sane.
They used UCD to develop vaccines.
quote:
RNA sensors such as Toll-like receptor 7 (TLR7) and MDA5 are triggered by the mRNA vaccines, and TLR9 is the major double-stranded DNA sensor for the AdV vaccine. The resultant activated DCs present antigen and co-stimulatory molecules to S protein-specific naive T cells, which become activated and differentiated into effector cells to form cytotoxic T lymphocytes or helper T cells. T follicular helper (TFH) cells help S protein-specific B cells to differentiate into antibody-secreting plasma cells and promote the production of high affinity anti-S protein antibodies.
COVID-19 vaccines: modes of immune activation and future challenges | Nature Reviews Immunology
Our knowledge of toll-like receptors came from applying UCD.
quote:
Two and a half years later, the idea of innate immunity in humans and its connections to defense in invertebrates had already taken hold. At least 150 scientists gathered at a National Academy of Sciences colloquium in Irvine, Calif., entitled “Virulence and Defense in Host-Pathogen Interactions: Common Features between Plants and Animals.” At the meeting, 12 researchers specifically discussed their work on toll in flies and “toll-like receptors”—as the mammalian versions are now known—and other aspects of innate immunity. Two dozen other scientists focused on patterns common to the insect and mammalian pathogens.

By March 2001, scientists had found 10 other human toll-like receptors, including toll-like receptor 2, which Shizuo Akira, MD, and colleagues at Osaka University showed responds to a particular sequence found in bacterial DNA but not in mammalian DNA. To get an idea of how fast the field has grown since 1997, a literature search for the term “toll-like receptor” in 2022 brought up more than 56,000 abstracts.

The evolutionary connections also awed researchers, as they eventually found toll-like molecules in worms, mice, even plants. Plant geneticist Santosh Misra, PhD, and colleagues at the University of Victoria in British Columbia genetically engineered antimicrobial peptides into potatoes to get the crops to withstand fungal infection. Protective compounds produced by plants could conceivably work as new classes of antibiotics in people as well.
The History Behind The Discovery of toll-like Receptors < Yale School of Medicine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1304 by Dredge, posted 12-15-2022 11:50 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1306 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2022 6:44 PM Taq has not replied

  
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